Federal Indictment of Donald Trump

[hog88]

Anything about Navy v. Egan is fighting the same strawman that made you look stupid in the last post. For the last time: I am not questioning presidential authority. This is just GIGO from a reliable, but poorly trained, Trump parrot. memorizing your lines isn’t impressive if you don’t know when you’re supposed to say them. Also, the reliance on that case for this idea is either desperate or ignorant. https://sgp.fas.org/eprint/egan.pdf

However, courts actually have ruled that the president has to follow procedures to exercise his authority regarding declassification. https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/ca2/18-2112/18-2112-2020-07-09.pdf?ts=1594303207

You honestly don’t understand the difference between “having the authority” and “following procedures?”

Are you just throwing **** against the wall hoping I wont read it?

Nothing in your link says anything about how a POTUS must follow a procedure to declassify as a matter of fact the majority says.

17 It is true that the President has broad authority to classify and
18 declassify, derived from the President’s dual role “as head of the
19 Executive Branch and as Commander in Chief” of the armed forces.
20 The “authority to classify and control access to information bearing
21 on national security . . . flows primarily from this constitutional


1 investment of power in the President and exists quite apart from any
2 explicit congressional grant.

74 Dep't of Navy v. Egan, 484 U.S. 518, 527 (1988).

75 28 No. 18-2112-cv

The whole case you linked was about how the president declassified certain CIA operations in Syria because he mentioned them in a tweet, both The CIA disagreed. The courts ruled in favor of the CIA while agreeing that the President has virtually unlimited power to classify and control information on national security.

Nice try but a swing and a miss.

 

[RockyTop85]

Are you just throwing **** against the wall hoping I wont read it?

Nothing in your link says anything about how a POTUS must follow a procedure to declassify as a matter of fact the majority says.



The whole case you linked was about how the president declassified certain CIA operations in Syria because he mentioned them in a tweet, both The CIA disagreed. The courts ruled in favor of the CIA while agreeing that the President has virtually unlimited power to classify and control information on national security.

Nice try but a swing and a miss.

“Because declassification, even by the President, must follow established procedures, that argument fails.”

Verbatim, from the case that you “read.”

Dumbass.

Executive Order 13526 explains how a document becomes classified and declassified. There is no indication that the list of procedures is not exhaustive. No reservation or catch-all provision. Yet, unspoken and undocumented presidential whim is not among the ways a document is declassified. And for the last time, the classification system exists to give notice of the accessibility of information to people other than the president. The entire concept of an unspoken, unrecorded declassification is antithetical to the purpose of the system, is completely nonsensical, and would cause the entire process to collapse because the markings would be unreliable and nobody would know what was accessible to them.

And furthermore, the order, signed by Obama in 2009, clearly vests the Vice President with the same authority as the President. So, you can either reach the conclusion that both Trump and Biden did something wrong or that both did nothing wrong. Trying for anything in between is about as inconsistent as it gets and would be humiliating for anybody with even a shred of dignity.

 

[hog88]

“Because declassification, even by the President, must follow established procedures, that argument fails.”

Verbatim, from the case that you “read.”

Dumbass.

Executive Order 13526 explains how a document becomes classified and declassified. There is no indication that the list of procedures is not exhaustive. No reservation or catch-all provision. Yet, unspoken and undocumented presidential whim is not among the ways a document is declassified. And for the last time, the classification system exists to give notice of the accessibility of information to people other than the president. The entire concept of an unspoken, unrecorded declassification is antithetical to the purpose of the system, is completely nonsensical, and would cause the entire process to collapse because the markings would be unreliable and nobody would know what was accessible to them.

And furthermore, the order, signed by Obama in 2009, clearly vests the Vice President with the same authority as the President. So, you can either reach the conclusion that both Trump and Biden did something wrong or that both did nothing wrong. Trying for anything in between is about as inconsistent as it gets and would be humiliating for anybody with even a shred of dignity.

Ok you win. So either both are guilty or neither one is.

 

[0nelilreb]

Ok you win. So either both are guilty or neither one is.

Throw both in a cell together for 20 years no probation , no bail , offer them 1 year off for every government secret that they have seen that has been intentionally kept from the American people and shouldn’t be .Give them 2 weeks to compile the list together in a room with two lawyers . Then start the clock .

 

[hUTch2002]

That’s an astute observation, barkeep. Why, with that set of skills, they’ll be teaching you how correctly pour a beer in no time.

I know how to correctly pour one. Open mouth, pour beer in mouth, the end.

 

[hUTch2002]

I swear, Trump has nine lives. No matter what he does someone, or some thing, intervenes to save his fat arse.

Or maybe, just maybe, he isn’t guilty of most of the things Dems claim he is.

 

[sonofUT62]

Throw both in a cell together for 20 years no probation , no bail , offer them 1 year off for every government secret that they have seen that has been intentionally kept from the American people and shouldn’t be .Give them 2 weeks to compile the list together in a room with two lawyers . Then start the clock .

I like the idea of a shared cell. A better idea would be a fight to the death, with the winner getting ten years knocked off his sentence.

 

[0nelilreb]

I like the idea of a shared cell. A better idea would be a fight to the death, with the winner getting ten years knocked off his sentence.

Yeah but one dying doesn’t help us find out what they government doesn’t want us to know and actually helps them.. one less old useless snitch lol

 

[NCFisher]

See e.g DACA.

We both know an exception - in this case an inexplicable split-court decision - does not constitute the rule. EOs are discarded by presidents like changing clothes.

 

[NCFisher]

Executive orders are binding until repealed or supersceded. People cried about all the XOs Biden used in his first 100 days, but many of them were just rescinding prior XO’s. Why would he bother doing that if they didn’t have any effect in his administration? Why did Trump need to rescind the order creating DACA? Why does the preamble to 13526 rescind prior XOs dealing with classification?

The same reason that a document’s markings, rather than presidential whim, are what govern their classification status: The written law/regulation/order is what gives notice to people who have to follow those laws/regulations/orders of their duties and limitations.

These aren’t constitutional questions, it’s just administrative procedure. The entire concept of classified information within the executive branch is set forth in this XO. There’s no higher authority that grants the president greater powers or lesser powers. Congress could arguably limit those powers, but has not in a way that is particularly meaningful to this discussion. If the XO is constitutional, then it controls until it is replaced or rescinded. So this is how it is done until the order is repealed or changed and since the Trump presidency is ended without repealing or changing, that is how it was done for his presidency.

XO 13526 says a number of things that are pertinent here: 1. that authority for classification may be exercised and delegated by the president and vice president. 2. that declassification doesn’t result from accidental disclosure. 3. Section 1.5 sets out procedures for classification including the requirement of labeling and including a justification as well as a time frame and predicate events for declassification; 4. section 3.1 sets out procedures for declassification including that items that still meet the classification criteria (which should be set out in the face of the cover sheet) are presumed classified.

This is the same type thing that happened with the “liability shield” stuff. It’s just patently nonsensical stuff born of motivated reasoning. Same as the liability shield stuff with the Covid vaccines.

Everyone's aware that president's can revoke EOs virtually at will; they're not congressional law. How does that or any of your post support what you appeared to be asserting - that Trump farted/thought de/classification into existence when he clearly did not? Frankly, I don't understand the relevance of your offering up the EO after I referenced the very deliberate and officious manner in which Trump actually declassed the docs. Whatever he actually thinks regarding, he clearly acquiesced to Meadows entreaty months earlier that he deliberately give DOJ/FBI input on declassing the docs, he accepted their recommendations, and publicly and officially ordered it be done as president. Because media and Democrats wish to pretend that didn't occur doesn't make it so. Just as they pretend he didn't authorize DOD to deploy NG at request of capitol officials for the impending Jan 6 session.

EO 13526 doesn't change that. Presidents makes decisions, give orders, and everyone else jumps to make it happen. That's what EO13526 does, that's what EOs do; they prescribe process for subordinates. You can argue people should be brought up on charges of insubordination or usurpation of authority, but you can't argue they weren't given a constitutional order. The 'process' is to follow the order.

Edit: saw you post acknowledging at minimum the president has to vocalize order to de/classify; I agree and that renders everything else minor arguments.

 

[NCFisher]

It's like they are in boxes in a locked garage for a few years.

Joe: "C'mon man - it's not like they're in a neighborhood book-share box in front the house"
(as Joe's lawyers rush to the neighborhood book-share boxes....)

 

[NCFisher]

And the other part. Is there even a document log, and does it contain whether the documents are classified and to what level. Outside the military and intelligence, the whole concept of security seems to be a joke. Without a document inventory including classification, it's impossible to tell what is and isn't classified and if it's secure or off in the ether ... maybe in joe's garage. The other big issue now with the advent of technology is keeping tabs of printed and electronic versions, and whether they have been duplicated and how far distributed. If the documents aren't in a vault without electronic access, they basically aren't secure regardless of content and classification.

Documents have a chain of custody sheet just beneath the cover sheet, the last person officially holding the document is known. I'd assume digital docs have a digital equivalent, such as your password and identity logging to chain of custody log file as you use it to access files permitted to you.

It's no secret much classification is simply to prevent congressional oversight and investigative inquiry.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Aaaaaaaaannnd there Are more. Batch number THREE I think (if I am not losing count)
Additional Documents Found at Biden’s Wilmington Home, White House Says

 

[AM64]

“Because declassification, even by the President, must follow established procedures, that argument fails.”

Verbatim, from the case that you “read.”

Dumbass.

Executive Order 13526 explains how a document becomes classified and declassified. There is no indication that the list of procedures is not exhaustive. No reservation or catch-all provision. Yet, unspoken and undocumented presidential whim is not among the ways a document is declassified. And for the last time, the classification system exists to give notice of the accessibility of information to people other than the president. The entire concept of an unspoken, unrecorded declassification is antithetical to the purpose of the system, is completely nonsensical, and would cause the entire process to collapse because the markings would be unreliable and nobody would know what was accessible to them.

And furthermore, the order, signed by Obama in 2009, clearly vests the Vice President with the same authority as the President. So, you can either reach the conclusion that both Trump and Biden did something wrong or that both did nothing wrong. Trying for anything in between is about as inconsistent as it gets and would be humiliating for anybody with even a shred of dignity.

That's reassuring - like playing Mom against Dad. Somebody knows Obama wouldn't declassify something so he goes around to Biden with the story that Obama is busy and this needs to be done, and Joe says "No problem." There's got to be process, procedures, secure storage, custodians, inventory logs, vetting, and security levels assigned to staff. Another point is that security clearances should terminate with the job, and not be a commodity that makes ex-officials useful tools.

 

[AM64]

Everyone's aware that president's can revoke EOs virtually at will; they're not congressional law. How does that or any of your post support what you appeared to be asserting - that Trump farted/thought de/classification into existence when he clearly did not? Frankly, I don't understand the relevance of your offering up the EO after I referenced the very deliberate and officious manner in which Trump actually declassed the docs. Whatever he actually thinks regarding, he clearly acquiesced to Meadows entreaty months earlier that he deliberately give DOJ/FBI input on declassing the docs, he accepted their recommendations, and publicly and officially ordered it be done as president. Because media and Democrats wish to pretend that didn't occur doesn't make it so. Just as they pretend he didn't authorize DOD to deploy NG at request of capitol officials for the impending Jan 6 session.

EO 13526 doesn't change that. Presidents makes decisions, give orders, and everyone else jumps to make it happen. That's what EO13526 does, that's what EOs do; they prescribe process for subordinates. You can argue people should be brought up on charges of insubordination or usurpation of authority, but you can't argue they weren't given a constitutional order. The 'process' is to follow the order.

Edit: saw you post acknowledging at minimum the president has to vocalize order to de/classify; I agree and that renders everything else minor arguments.

Remember, too. Nuremburg was all about people who were just following orders. If the top guy is above the law or makes the law on the fly, how can can you argue subordinates don't have a point.

 

[AM64]

Documents have a chain of custody sheet just beneath the cover sheet, the last person officially holding the document is known. I'd assume digital docs have a digital equivalent, such as your password and identity logging to chain of custody log file as you use it to access files permitted to you.

It's no secret much classification is simply to prevent congressional oversight and investigative inquiry.

That record assumes the secure storage of documents and a custodian to insure the procedures are followed ... assuming procedures are in place. The weak point is that once the document leaves the vault where it should be maintained, it's impossible to know who might have read or copied the document without signing the record. Even that degree of sanity would seem to fall apart with digital documents.

Probably the only thing that is even remotely a safeguard is the "I know a secret that you don't" and "Knowledge is power" ... so one guy doesn't tell another what he'd like to know because that makes him special. Of course, if a hot "reporter" or girlfriend (who may or may not work for China) is involved then telling secrets has a different kind of power and charm.

 

[rekinhavoc]

Biden's 'irresponsible' handling of classified docs bigger 'leakage' risk than Trump's, experts say

 

[RockyTop85]

Everyone's aware that president's can revoke EOs virtually at will; they're not congressional law. How does that or any of your post support what you appeared to be asserting - that Trump farted/thought de/classification into existence when he clearly did not? Frankly, I don't understand the relevance of your offering up the EO after I referenced the very deliberate and officious manner in which Trump actually declassed the docs. Whatever he actually thinks regarding, he clearly acquiesced to Meadows entreaty months earlier that he deliberately give DOJ/FBI input on declassing the docs, he accepted their recommendations, and publicly and officially ordered it be done as president. Because media and Democrats wish to pretend that didn't occur doesn't make it so. Just as they pretend he didn't authorize DOD to deploy NG at request of capitol officials for the impending Jan 6 session.

EO 13526 doesn't change that. Presidents makes decisions, give orders, and everyone else jumps to make it happen. That's what EO13526 does, that's what EOs do; they prescribe process for subordinates. You can argue people should be brought up on charges of insubordination or usurpation of authority, but you can't argue they weren't given a constitutional order. The 'process' is to follow the order.

Edit: saw you post acknowledging at minimum the president has to vocalize order to de/classify; I agree and that renders everything else minor arguments.

I don’t get the relevance of all this talk about discarding executive orders. His presidency is over. He didn’t discard it. It’s was and still is in effect.

I’d need a source for Trump deliberately and officiously declassifying the items that were found at Mar-a-largo, while he was still president. You’re the only person I’ve ever heard assert that. Even Trump didn’t claim that, he went with the “standing order” that anything removed from the White House was declassified, right? As far as I know, it’s still not even been made public exactly what was found.

 

[VolStrom]

I don’t get the relevance of all this talk about discarding executive orders. His presidency is over. He didn’t discard it. It’s was and still is in effect.

I’d need a source for Trump deliberately and officiously declassifying the items that were found at Mar-a-largo, while he was still president. You’re the only person I’ve ever heard assert that. Even Trump didn’t claim that, he went with the “standing order” that anything removed from the White House was declassified, right? As far as I know, it’s still not even been made public exactly what was found.

Here's a plan. Let's just let Biden declassify all the documents from Trump and Biden with the exception of technical secrets and let the American public decide what each of them had? Yeah, that will never happen, so let's just prosecute both of them.

 

[sonofUT62]

Yeah but one dying doesn’t help us find out what they government doesn’t want us to know and actually helps them.. one less old useless snitch lol

Never can go wrong with less Biden/ Trump in the world.

 

[lawgator1]

My hope is that this causes Biden either not to run or that it convinces better Dems that they can get the nomination.

 

[Orangeburst]

My hope is that this causes Biden either not to run or that it convinces better Dems that they can get the nomination.

LOL

 

[Majors]

My hope is that this causes Biden either not to run or that it convinces better Dems that they can get the nomination.

Better Dems ran last time, it was the oligarch that didn’t allow them to win the nomination.

 

[Majors]

Here's a plan. Let's just let Biden declassify all the documents from Trump and Biden with the exception of technical secrets and let the American public decide what each of them had? Yeah, that will never happen, so let's just prosecute both of them.

I’d settle for Hillary being arrested and prosecuted. But it won’t happen and that’s why you’ll never see Trump and now Biden prosecuted.

 

[lawgator1]

View attachment 531227

There is so much wrong with that it's hard to know where to start.

BOTH had documents illegally.

Biden returned them without being asked.

Trump refused repeated requests to return them.