Federal Indictment of Donald Trump

[Gandalf]

I wouldn’t put it past Trump to take classified documents that make certain people look bad as leverage, with threats to release the info. Now those people have pulled enough strings to get it back.

But that would be the textbook definition of extortion, easily prosecuted - but no one is making that claim or even whispering it.

This isn't about "classified documents" since damn near ever document associated with a POTUS is classified at some level. This is about politics and the Bidnen administration using a dispute between Trump and the National Archives (which other presidents have had) for political purposes.

Of course, if he writes something on a napkin - that is classified. And of course, this is just (to mangle a Clausewitz phrase) a mere continuation of politics by other means.

If they are classified as of today, then he cannot simply declassify them.

That is true, since he is no longer President. But how can they prove that there was no intent to declassify any that might remain unclassified? Basically they would attempt to use a procedural error to eliminate the main political rival from running for election? Highly doubt that is going to work and is not a good look for the Dems - even for those who so badly want orange man in prison. I mean, if you really want that, find something worthwhile. You have been working at it for over 5 years (and frankly I am surprised myself that nothing came up really of significance).

 

[RockyTop85]

I had this beaten into my thick hillbilly skull for 35 years in yearly training. While I’ll admit I’m in the camp of thinking this is more political driven and less actual care about classified material handling, any narrative ignoring standard classified material handling processes rings quite hollow on me.

Even if true, it’s small potatoes compared to the attempted coup he and Eastman et. al. tried to pull off.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Even if true, it’s small potatoes compared to the attempted coup he and Eastman et. al. tried to pull off.

 

[volgr]

And right on cue...a wild card

 

[RockyTop85]

I’m not invested in any outcome for this story. I’m hopeful but certainly not convinced that it was either done as part of a legitimate investigation or is somehow being misperceived (like that they just went to get the stuff out and Trump’s shrieking and the media salivating have blown it up into something it’s not; e.g. that they just went to get the stuff back to return it to the archives and it was never really meant to be a prelude to an indictment).

Not sure anybody will believe that last, at this point, but I have seen some reporting where some DOJ sources seemed to float that idea.

 

[Gandalf]

The funny thing is, if they are successful and knock Trump out this way, DeSantis is going to come in with a mandate from GOD on high and will likely have overwhelming support to eviscerate nearly every agency. He is sure to take up Trumps infamous executive order "Schedule F" and eliminate half the civil service.

I have a feeling if Dems disqualify Trump, giving DeSantis a huge moral boost, they may desperately wish they had Trump's bluster back. I dont know what DeSantis will do on foriegn policy or whether he could accomplish something like the Abraham Accords but on domestic policy and reforming a gov administration, he has proven very masterful with lazer like precision. With a huge swell of public sentiment behind him, it would be interesting.

 

[hog88]

The funny thing is, if they are successful and knock Trump out this way, DeSantis is going to come in with a mandate from GOD on high and will likely have overwhelming support to eviscerate nearly every agency. He is sure to take up Trumps infamous executive order "Schedule F" and eliminate half the civil service.

I have a feeling if Dems disqualify Trump, giving DeSantis a huge moral boost, they may desperately wish they had Trump's bluster back. I dont know what DeSantis will do on foriegn policy or whether he could accomplish something like the Abraham Accords but on domestic policy and reforming a gov administration, he has proven very masterful with lazer like precision. With a huge swell of public sentiment behind him, it would be interesting.

The machine will grind DeSantis to a pulp and destroy him or he will conform, the bureaucracy is too big to fail.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I’m not invested in any outcome for this story. I’m hopeful but certainly not convinced that it was either done as part of a legitimate investigation or is somehow being misperceived (like that they just went to get the stuff out and Trump’s shrieking and the media salivating have blown it up into something it’s not; e.g. that they just went to get the stuff back to return it to the archives and it was never really meant to be a prelude to an indictment).

Not sure anybody will believe that last, at this point, but I have seen some reporting where some DOJ sources seemed to float that idea.

Both could be true frankly. If Trump really did have classified material in his possession, and like Hog said pretty much any data product from the office of POTUS could be considered classified, then that is not appropriate. Granted plebes like myself don’t move in the rarified air of the players here but we plebes would be summarily thrown in jail and figure out the charges later if we’d done that. When I left my place of employment end of June I took zero data related to my work. I have no ownership rights to any company proprietary information and I had zero possession of classified info since those are by law stored in certified containers.

As I stated earlier in this thread I think this is a very dangerous precedent. I really think it’s banana republic level behavior thus far. But we will have to see what narrative gets spun in the end to sway that perception off. We are simply all going to have to wait.

But now that the genie is out of the bottle it’s gonna happen again in tit for tat fashion I’d guess.

 

[NorthDallas40]

The machine will grind DeSantis to a pulp and destroy him or he will conform, the bureaucracy is too big to fail.

I don’t think DeSantis would come in with the political naivety that Trump did honestly. I don’t think you’re wrong that they’ll go after him. But I think he’s already better prepared than Trump was upon assuming office.

 

[NorthDallas40]

 

[evillawyer]

Here come the "patriotic" Trumpies answering dear leaders call

 

[hog88]

I don’t think DeSantis would come in with the political naivety that Trump did honestly. I don’t think you’re wrong that they’ll go after him. But I think he’s already better prepared than Trump was upon assuming office.

I have no doubt that he is but I think anyone believing that should he win he will fundamentally change the DC bureaucracy is fooling themselves. The 3 letter agencies aren't letting another wildcard sit in the Oval Office.

 

[hog88]

Here come the "patriotic" Trumpies answering dear leaders call

Right on schedule.

 

[RockyTop85]

Both could be true frankly. If Trump really did have classified material in his possession, and like Hog said pretty much any data product from the office of POTUS could be considered classified, then that is not appropriate. Granted plebes like myself don’t move in the rarified air of the players here but we plebes would be summarily thrown in jail and figure out the charges later if we’d done that. When I left my place of employment end of June I took zero data related to my work. I have no ownership rights to any company proprietary information and I had zero possession of classified info since those are by law stored in certified containers.

As I stated earlier in this thread I think this is a very dangerous precedent. I really think it’s banana republic level behavior thus far. But we will have to see what narrative gets spun in the end to sway that perception off. We are simply all going to have to wait.

But now that the genie is out of the bottle it’s gonna happen again in tit for tat fashion I’d guess.

Exclusive: An informer told the FBI what documents Trump was hiding, and where

Found the reporting.

Article is good for a couple of laughs.

 

[Gandalf]

The machine will grind DeSantis to a pulp and destroy him or he will conform, the bureaucracy is too big to fail.

They will surely try, no doubt. But DeSantis understands politics and the mechanics of the machine far better than Trump ever did. But Trump had insulation via his personal wealth and also his deep understanding of how to troll the media and use social media to his advantage. Not sure DeSantis gets that as well personally but he knows how to hire someone who does. Both are fighters but Trump has a lifetime of experience on the art of the deal so both have their areas of strengths and weaknesses.

Trump 2.0 would be dangerous to the deep state because he will be gunning for it like a berzerk bull but DeSantis would also be very dangerous if he has the mandate of a disqualified Trump.

Point is, disqualifying Trump would be a Christmas, BDay and Valentines day gift all wrapped up in one to DeSantis.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I have no doubt that he is but I think anyone believing that should he win he will fundamentally change the DC bureaucracy is fooling themselves. The 3 letter agencies aren't letting another wildcard sit in the Oval Office.

Yeah that’s a reasonable take. All the agencies have had decades of self preservation preparation time.

 

[Gandalf]

Both could be true frankly. If Trump really did have classified material in his possession, and like Hog said pretty much any data product from the office of POTUS could be considered classified, then that is not appropriate. Granted plebes like myself don’t move in the rarified air of the players here but we plebes would be summarily thrown in jail and figure out the charges later if we’d done that. When I left my place of employment end of June I took zero data related to my work. I have no ownership rights to any company proprietary information and I had zero possession of classified info since those are by law stored in certified containers.

As I stated earlier in this thread I think this is a very dangerous precedent. I really think it’s banana republic level behavior thus far. But we will have to see what narrative gets spun in the end to sway that perception off. We are simply all going to have to wait.

But now that the genie is out of the bottle it’s gonna happen again in tit for tat fashion I’d guess.

This is part of what concerns me too. GOP is going to get in and when they do, they are going to have immense pressure to use the exact same tactics the Dems used to wipe out their pollical enemies. This is how we end up getting Patriot Act as our every day lives. I am just as concerned about the Republicans building a gallows to hang us all as the Dems. Both would be doing so for what they thought was the best of intentions but the whole point is taking power AWAY FROM GOVERNMENT.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Exclusive: An informer told the FBI what documents Trump was hiding, and where

Found the reporting.

Article is good for a couple of laughs.

I just heard this same article referenced on the news. If somebody has direct knowledge of classified information being held improperly then by law and their training they are to notify the FBI. The training I had said to specifically contact the FBI. That doesn’t mean multiple agendas are in play here however.

 

[NorthDallas40]

This is part of what concerns me too. GOP is going to get in and when they do, they are going to have immense pressure to use the exact same tactics the Dems used to wipe out their pollical enemies. This is how we end up getting Patriot Act as our every day lives. I am just as concerned about the Republicans building a gallows to hang us all as the Dems. Both would be doing so for what they thought was the best of intentions but the whole point is taking power AWAY FROM GOVERNMENT.

Don’t disagree.

 

[hog88]

I just heard this same article referenced on the news. If somebody has direct knowledge of classified information being held improperly then by law and their training they are to notify the FBI. The training I had said to specifically contact the FBI. That doesn’t mean multiple agendas are in play here however.

And as we saw with the Muells investigation most of these anonymous sources are either figments of a reporters imagination, made up by someone in the .gov to float propaganda or just plain FOS.

 

[RockyTop85]

I just heard this same article referenced on the news. If somebody has direct knowledge of classified information being held improperly then by law and their training they are to notify the FBI. The training I had said to specifically contact the FBI. That doesn’t mean multiple agendas are in play here however.

This is clearly somebody from the White House. Maybe Ron Klain, although I’d think he would go somewhere other than Newsweek. I just thought the whole “they were hoping [the raid] wouldn’t create a media circus” thing was hysterical.

 

[Orangeslice13]

So you are saying that was completely okay in 2016 two weeks before an election, but this with Trump was not? You are letting your bias show a bit with this hot take.

Are you saying dropping the awol against GW 2 weeks before the election was ok but the HRC deal isn’t?
By the way the awol story was BS. That kind of thing has been going on since Carter. If you look at it there’s always a surprise by one side or the other just before the election. Sometimes both. Even so that apples and oranges compared to what they just pulled with the FBI.

 

[RikidyBones]

I had already googled it, already read the order and already read the statute, thanks. I want to know whether @Caculator was lying or being lied to.

About what? Did he say anything incorrect?

 

[NorthDallas40]

This is clearly somebody from the White House. Maybe Ron Klain, although I’d think he would go somewhere other than Newsweek. I just thought the whole “they were hoping [the raid] wouldn’t create a media circus” thing was hysterical.

I laughed at that comment also. If anybody involved genuinely thought that then they need to be fired for extreme nativity and cluelessness.

 

[Septic]

Exclusive: An informer told the FBI what documents Trump was hiding, and where

Found the reporting.

Article is good for a couple of laughs.

I chuckled at the irony of this in particular:

"On Monday at about 9 a.m. EDT, two dozen FBI agents and technicians showed up at Donald Trump's Florida home to execute a search warrant to obtain any government-owned documents that might be in the possession of Trump but are required to be delivered to the Archives under the provisions of the 1978 Presidential Records Act. (In response to the Hillary Clinton email scandal, Trump himself signed a law in 2018 that made it a felony to remove and retain classified documents.)

The act establishes that presidential records are the property of the U.S. government and not a president's private property. Put in place after Watergate to avoid the abuses of the Nixon administration, the law imposes strict penalties for failure to comply. "Whoever, having the custody of any such record, proceeding, map, book, document, paper, or other thing, willfully and unlawfully conceals, removes, mutilates, obliterates, falsifies, or destroys the same, shall be fined" $2,000, up to three years in prison or "shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States."