"Fence Around Tennessee"?????

#101
#101
I_Hate_the_BCS said:
I agree with you on this, ESPN the mag just rated him the #1 receiver in the country. Turner was drafter by the Dolphins in the 3rd round, I'll be suprised if we have a receiver drafted higher than the 3rd round in the next 2 or 3 years.

Lets face facts though folks, alot of UT's problems with keeping this talent in state has been lack of production/player development. After Stallworth left we have had 1 decent receiver in the NFL. Kids notice this.

For the person who threw stats up about the Roger's brothers and Maples, did you see all 3 of them play in HS? I did and Maples was the better one. Better hands, better route runner, same speed.....I have heard from numerous people that he never got a fair shot at UT, whether thats true or not I don't know but I have heard this from 4 or 5 people, 1 that works for Rivals.com
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I did seem them play, and I stick by that opinion. Here are a few more "stats" for you that are even more telling.

Offer lists

Zach
Tennessee
Vanderbilt
South Carolina
Oklahoma St.
Alabama
Auburn
colorado
Texas Tech
Duke
North Carolina
Stanford

Austin
Tennessee
Miss St.
Vanderbilt

Tyler
Tennessee

I'll takes the coaches' opinions that offered over both of ours.
 
#102
#102
WPAINE said:
so to insinuate that we need 4 and 5 star players b/c "those are the teams that win national championships" is just plain wrong. The teams that win national championships have a lot more going for them than 4 and 5 star players, as proven by the MANY teams that have 4 and 5 star players that are playing on New Year's Day bowls or worse - not national championships.
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No it's not. Look at USC, Florida, LSU, Oklahoma, Texas and tOSU. Where do you think they finish in rankings every year?

3* guys like Jason White etc can start and become great players, but you aren' winning national titles or SEC Titles with a team full of Ryan Karls.

There are only at max two teams that win the national title in a given year and far greater than 170 4 and 5* players on rosters (85 schollys per team) so that makes zero sense.
 
#103
#103
JZVOL said:
No it's not. Look at USC, Florida, LSU, Oklahoma, Texas and tOSU. Where do you think they finish in rankings every year?

3* guys like Jason White etc can start and become great players, but you aren' winning national titles or SEC Titles with a team full of Ryan Karls.

There are only at max two teams that win the national title in a given year and far greater than 170 4 and 5* players on rosters (85 schollys per team) so that makes zero sense.
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Gosh, okay then why hasn't Alabama, UGA, UT, Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame, Virgnia Tech, or Michigan done much of anything of late despite having top 10 recruiting classes almost EVERY YEAR and having rosters chalked full of 4 and 5 stars....

And I think it is a cop out to say that Ryan Karl and Ellix Wilson only started b/c talent dropped off. It isn't so much that talent dropped off as the talent became more dispersed within the SEC.. Hell, we ranked 3rd in the 2007 recruit standings....

But the root of this debate is that you focus on the teams that have won championships and of course they have 4 and 5 star players, but they have A LOT of other stuff that is more important... If you are going to speak in such broad strokes as to say we want teams filled with 4 and 5 star players then you have to accept that Kenny O'Neal was a 5 star recruit.

Lastly, if that is all we are going by, then UT should be just fine because we have PLENTY of 4 and 5 star players on our team....Hell, based on that system we have one of the top 3 best Quarterbacks in the nation!!! Meanwhile, it is really a shame that Oklahoma and Texas are stuck with those awful 3 star QB's Bradford and McCoy.
 
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#106
#106
VOL61 said:
Agreed.

There are only two kids we seem to want that are instate kids. That would be Maclin and Stone. We may be also trying to get Hunter Long but he isn't coming.

We are trying to keep the top players here. We aren't going to pass up a better player just to take a instate kid. Which only makes sense. I do think you will see more instate kids walking on though if this staff keeps reaching out to TN high school coaches. Which we will help. Nebraska done that for years. But it takes time and we are only getting started right now.
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...and the DE out of Ooltewah. I liked the fence around TN statement but it does take time and effort to build and or improve existing relationships around the state and building a fence doesn't mean you'll take a lesser instate talent if you can get a better one elsewhere. Hopefully we can get the lion's share of the top 2011 prospects as that class looks to be fairly large with high quality prospects. You can trace our '98 championship back to a large and talented instate class from I think '96.

I like how this is setting up - upgrade the talent from where ever you can get it and bolster that with a large instate class in 2011 to set us up for 2012 and beyond.
 
#107
#107
WPAINE said:
Gosh, okay then why hasn't Alabama, UGA, UT, Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame, Virgnia Tech, or Michigan done much of anything of late despite having top 10 recruiting classes almost EVERY YEAR and having rosters chalked full of 4 and 5 stars....

And I think it is a cop out to say that Ryan Karl and Ellix Wilson only started b/c talent dropped off. It isn't so much that talent dropped off as the talent became more dispersed within the SEC.. Hell, we ranked 3rd in the 2007 recruit standings....

But the root of this debate is that you focus on the teams that have won championships and of course they have 4 and 5 star players, but they have A LOT of other stuff that is more important... If you are going to speak in such broad strokes as to say we want teams filled with 4 and 5 star players then you have to accept that Kenny O'Neal was a 5 star recruit.

Lastly, if that is all we are going by, then UT should be just fine because we have PLENTY of 4 and 5 star players on our team....Hell, based on that system we have one of the top 3 best Quarterbacks in the nation!!! Meanwhile, it is really a shame that Oklahoma and Texas are stuck with those awful 3 star QB's Bradford and McCoy.
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Only two teams can play for the National Championship each year. Teams that are comepting for the National Chamnpionship each year, win conferences and thus got to bowl games.

I don't know how anyone can dispute this chart that clearly shows the teams with a majority of 4 and 5 star recruits are winning league and national cahmpionships. Just don't think that can be debated.

Untitled Document
 
#108
#108
LWSVOL said:
Only two teams can play for the National Championship each year. Teams that are comepting for the National Chamnpionship each year, win conferences and thus got to bowl games.

I don't know how anyone can dispute this chart that clearly shows the teams with a majority of 4 and 5 star recruits are winning league and national cahmpionships. Just don't think that can be debated.

Untitled Document
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The argument was never that 4 and 5 star players aren't, with a few exceptions, better players than 2 stars or whatever. My point was that it is ridiculous to say that ryan karl or ellix wilson weren't any good or that the fact that they were starting was an indication that our talent level has depleted. If we went solely by "stars" then I would think more people on here would be upset at the number of unranked and low ranked 3 star committments that we currently have for our 2010 signing class.
 
#109
#109
LWSVOL said:
Only two teams can play for the National Championship each year. Teams that are comepting for the National Chamnpionship each year, win conferences and thus got to bowl games.

I don't know how anyone can dispute this chart that clearly shows the teams with a majority of 4 and 5 star recruits are winning league and national cahmpionships. Just don't think that can be debated.

Untitled Document
Click to expand...

Stars are just that...stars. Patrick Willis was a 3 star coming out of Bruceton.
 
#110
#110
WPAINE said:
The argument was never that 4 and 5 star players aren't, with a few exceptions, better players than 2 stars or whatever. My point was that it is ridiculous to say that ryan karl or ellix wilson weren't any good or that the fact that they were starting was an indication that our talent level has depleted. If we went solely by "stars" then I would think more people on here would be upset at the number of unranked and low ranked 3 star committments that we currently have for our 2010 signing class.
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I believe our talent level has been down, way down compared to 90s into early 2000s. I wouldn't particularly name players as indications of that but generally, we fell off in talent level.

But I thought both those guys were good, not great but good players. Neither would have ever seen the field at Florida but neither would many of the players on the field for us at that time. BUT, that is a different argument. :)
 
#111
#111
MD1MD11 said:
Stars are just that...stars. Patrick Willis was a 3 star coming out of Bruceton.
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One can name all kinds of 3 and 2 star players that were great college and NFL players. One can name all kinds of 4 and 5 star players that failed in college and never sniffed the NFL. That isn't hard to do and I have all kinds of that type data.

BUT again, I'm not sure how anyone can debate over an 8 year timeframe the championships won by teams made up with a majority of players rated 4 and 5 stars. The data cannot be refuted.

Tennessee recruited well enough during that same period to win several Big East championships, had they been in that conference. JMO can't be proven.
 
#112
#112
WPAINE said:
Gosh, okay then why hasn't Alabama, UGA, UT, Miami, Florida State, Notre Dame, Virgnia Tech, or Michigan done much of anything of late despite having top 10 recruiting classes almost EVERY YEAR and having rosters chalked full of 4 and 5 stars....

And I think it is a cop out to say that Ryan Karl and Ellix Wilson only started b/c talent dropped off. It isn't so much that talent dropped off as the talent became more dispersed within the SEC.. Hell, we ranked 3rd in the 2007 recruit standings....

But the root of this debate is that you focus on the teams that have won championships and of course they have 4 and 5 star players, but they have A LOT of other stuff that is more important... If you are going to speak in such broad strokes as to say we want teams filled with 4 and 5 star players then you have to accept that Kenny O'Neal was a 5 star recruit.

Lastly, if that is all we are going by, then UT should be just fine because we have PLENTY of 4 and 5 star players on our team....Hell, based on that system we have one of the top 3 best Quarterbacks in the nation!!! Meanwhile, it is really a shame that Oklahoma and Texas are stuck with those awful 3 star QB's Bradford and McCoy.
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Because only two teams can play in the BCS Championship Game every year. Each team has 85 guys on scholly for a total of 170.

Lets say there are 250 four/five star guys per year. So that means there are more probably 600 to 800 if not more playing CFB.

They all can't play on two teams.

It's not a cop out it's a fact our talent level has dropped. Those two would not have seen the field in our glory days in the '90s.

They both played well and did a nice job.

And nobody is saying the actual stars a HS kid has matter. Elite guys flop and lower level guys blossom, it happens.

But it is no coincidence that team that consistently finish at the top of recruitng ranking win the national titles. That can't be proven wrong.
 
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#114
#114
Anyone ever stop to think that the fastest way to fill a roster is "in-state". Also that if we put offers out and they are accepted, then Kiffin is bound to bring them on or risk ruining the relationship with that school and community. (Much worse at home than Pahokee). I bet he has had this convo with most coaches and is leaving the door open for these in-state tallented kids, to go find anything they want because more than likely they wont really get that UT offer.......... In these ways (Tahj Boyd) he is being honest and allowing these young men to follow their football dream, just not sit around and lose all offers waiting on a very selective UT.
MAYBE ????????
 
#115
#115
LWSVOL said:
I believe our talent level has been down, way down compared to 90s into early 2000s. I wouldn't particularly name players as indications of that but generally, we fell off in talent level.

But I thought both those guys were good, not great but good players. Neither would have ever seen the field at Florida but neither would many of the players on the field for us at that time. BUT, that is a different argument. :)
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Fulmer and crew always had respectable to excellent recruiting classes, going by the "ratings". I honestly dont think our talent is as down as many are saying....however, our coaches ability to get that talent on the field and producing is what has been our biggest problem this decade.
 
#116
#116
Our roster includes two top 10 classes and two not in the top 25. The two top 10 classes included several of the higher ranked players going JUCO route and several washing out or kicked out. Not to mention we've gone a few classes now without recruiting a QB. We have huge roster holes to fill. In the long run since we are rebuilding it might be a blessing that we have large numbers to fill so we can fill them with this staff's type of players sooner than later. We have a few studs sprinkled around, but we are definitely down. Just look at our O-line, particularly the lack of quality depth. Our D-line might end up OK with some luck and bailing wire but not great quality depth. Our receivers may end up OK, but they sure do look pedestrian compared to our top competitors and if it wasn't for the 3 Freshman RBs, 2 now that Williams is out, our RB situation would look scary and outside of one legit starter the other LBs would probably not see the field on our top competitor's teams and let's not even talk about our QB situation...

No, our talent is definitely down and outside a couple of recruiting blips that were more mirage than reality it's been sliding down steadily for a few years now.
 
#117
#117
Coach Fulmer was obviously a tremendous coach. His winning percentage and natioal championship prove it. I would be more concerned if Coach Kiffin completely disagreed with the previous staffs choices. You don't inherit an entire team that wasn't good. As for in-state talent. It comes and goes. However, it is well documented that sadly we just don't produce as much blue chip talent as our neighbors. I have seen Patrick Turner, James Stone, and the Rogers brothers live. None of them were as impressive in high school as Rod Wilks or Eric Gordon. Both will make an impact this year. However, the best player I have ever seen play live in high school is not from Tennessee. It's Channing Fugate at Belfry in the KY State Semis. He is amazing. Mabey we should fence east Ky.:p
 
#118
#118
This class has 5 recruiting classes, not 4, due to all the redshirts from the 2005 class. The 2005 class was the #2 class in the country by most recruiting rankings. Given that many other programs we compete with do not have so many redshirts, our talent level on the roster is closer to a top 10 recruiting ranking than an unranked recruiting ranking, collectively. Of course, that still puts us behind UGA, UF and Alabama, with their repeated top 5 classes.
 
#119
#119
BuckeyeVols said:
Fulmer and crew always had respectable to excellent recruiting classes, going by the "ratings". I honestly dont think our talent is as down as many are saying....however, our coaches ability to get that talent on the field and producing is what has been our biggest problem this decade.
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Lot of people share your sentiment. I suspect this year and next we will get to see first hand which viewpoint is accurate
 
#120
#120
I agree. Regardless of what Fulmer based his recruiting on, whether it was stars or he actually evaluated these kids, he had some pretty good classes. It's just he didn't know what to do with them once they got on campus. Something tells me that is all about to change.
 
#122
#122
tennisguy said:
I agree. Regardless of what Fulmer based his recruiting on, whether it was stars or he actually evaluated these kids, he had some pretty good classes. It's just he didn't know what to do with them once they got on campus. Something tells me that is all about to change.
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agree. but if you average those classes, there are 4 teams we play this year in the conference where the "ratings" had those ahead of Tennessee in the rankings. Ole Miss was not one of them either.

SEC 5 Yr Avg
*****
Florida 6.2
Alabama 6.5
Georgia 7.0
LSU 9.6
Auburn 13.8
Tennessee 14.6
S Carolina 17.2
Ole Miss 23.8
Arkansas 26.4
Miss St 37.0
Kentucky 51.2
Vanderbilt 74.2
 
#123
#123
tennisguy said:
I agree. Regardless of what Fulmer based his recruiting on, whether it was stars or he actually evaluated these kids, he had some pretty good classes. It's just he didn't know what to do with them once they got on campus. Something tells me that is all about to change.
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I'm not sure I totally buy that. I don't think he lost the ability to "know what to do with players" after the NC season.

Personally I think the staff lost their edge, took their foot off the gas or whatever you want to call it, tried to get it back and couldn't find it.

I think the staff took certain things for granted and expected certain things to go their way and it trickled down to the players.

All of this is opinion of course.
 
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#124
#124
JZVOL said:
No it's not. Look at USC, Florida, LSU, Oklahoma, Texas and tOSU. Where do you think they finish in rankings every year?

3* guys like Jason White etc can start and become great players, but you aren' winning national titles or SEC Titles with a team full of Ryan Karls.

There are only at max two teams that win the national title in a given year and far greater than 170 4 and 5* players on rosters (85 schollys per team) so that makes zero sense.
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You are wrong. You can win a national championship with a team "full of Ryan Karl's" (2* players who play like 4-5 * guys. UT has a bunch of 4-5* guys that play like 2* ......that is the problem)
 
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