File under: What are they thinking?

#51
#51
lawgator1 said:
Ok, but then you need to quit your bitching that Obama won and is favoring the bottom and middle classes.
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At the expense of the broader economy and by assaulting our capitalist system? Go hump yourself.
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#52
#52
BigPapaVol said:
At the expense of the broader economy and by assaulting our capitalist system? Go hump yourself.
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Well, if GS is going to be in a position to pay out record bonuses in December, your argument has a problem.
 
#54
#54
kptvol said:
Are you suggesting that GS's success is an indication the economy is thriving?
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No. But I am saying that one cannot defend GS paying out billions in bonuses off record profits and simultaenously claim that Obama is turning us into France.
 
#55
#55
lawgator1 said:
No. But I am saying that one cannot defend GS paying out billions in bonuses off record profits and simultaenously claim that Obama is turning us into France.
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Ok. So the fact that he wants to eliminate those bonuses is irrelevant.
 
#56
#56
kptvol said:
Ok. So the fact that he wants to eliminate those bonuses is irrelevant.
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Exactly. Obama's absurd view is the basis of LGs French Socialist argument. Screw that.

Investment Banking fees are certainly not indicators for the broader economy. In fact, if you'd read up a bit LG, these guys are thriving because competition had been so whittled down.
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#57
#57
lawgator1 said:
No. But I am saying that one cannot defend GS paying out billions in bonuses off record profits and simultaenously claim that Obama is turning us into France.
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sure you can, he's only been in office less than 6 months and hasn't had enough time to completely screw private businesses.
 
#60
#60
lawgator1 said:
And you marvel that such a large number of people in this country support limits on these bonuses.
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find me one successful self made person that feels this way. rainmakers get paid in any industry. this theory from you that goldman is throwing these people money for no reason soley to screw the little man has to stop. if goldman didn't think they'd see a return 10 fold from these people they wouldnt' be getting a dime. mark my word. there isn't a single guy at my firm that got a bonus this year that wasn't a revenue generator or at the very least wasn't a very important support person for a major revenue generator.
 
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#61
#61
lawgator1 said:
No. But I am saying that one cannot defend GS paying out billions in bonuses off record profits and simultaenously claim that Obama is turning us into France.
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when his chief economic advisor is on cnbc saying a) that they hope all non tarp companies will follow the compensation limits that obama is going to propose and b) suggesting that taxes are currently too low because in the carter era the maximum tax bracket was 90%, I think we can safetly assume that if obama had his way france would be considered our "capitalist" sister country.
 
#62
#62
droski said:
find me one successful self made person that feels this way. rainmakers get paid in any industry. this theory from you that goldman is throwing these people money for no reason soley to screw the little man has to stop. if goldman didn't think they'd see a return 10 fold from these people they wouldnt' be getting a dime. mark my word. there isn't a single guy at my firm that got a bonus this year that wasn't a revenue generator or at the very least wasn't a very important support person for a major revenue generator.
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That's an absurd straw man argument. Instead of taking what I am actually saying and dealing with that, you re-cast my position into something that is so ridiculous it is much easier defeated.

I am not saying GS is paying out bonuses "solely to screw the little man."

What I am saying is that the public perception of this is going to be bewilderment. We have 10 percent unemployment and most people are still looking at massive losses in their retirement funds. But, the cost of gas is going up (again) and even when the price of oil is actually coming down, employers are cutting benefits (I know I just did to the people working for me -- they are having to pay a portion of their own health insurance for the first time in the 8 years we've been open), and of course the housing market remains in the tank.

And as you all are fond of pointing out, our children are being saddled with enormous debt, much of it we are told in order to keep these investment banks from going under.

That one of them that very same year says it will hand out record bonuses just seems like those at the very top are living a record life of luxury while everyone else continues to suffer.

So I did not say that was the purpose to it, which is what you are arguing against. But that is nonetheless going to be the perception of reality in terms of the disconnect between what my staff is going through economically in their own lives and what they read about for the investment bankers.
 
#63
#63
lawgator1 said:
That's an absurd straw man argument. Instead of taking what I am actually saying and dealing with that, you re-cast my position into something that is so ridiculous it is much easier defeated.

I am not saying GS is paying out bonuses "solely to screw the little man."

What I am saying is that the public perception of this is going to be bewilderment. We have 10 percent unemployment and most people are still looking at massive losses in their retirement funds. But, the cost of gas is going up (again) and even when the price of oil is actually coming down, employers are cutting benefits (I know I just did to the people working for me -- they are having to pay a portion of their own health insurance for the first time in the 8 years we've been open), and of course the housing market remains in the tank.

And as you all are fond of pointing out, our children are being saddled with enormous debt, much of it we are told in order to keep these investment banks from going under.

That one of them that very same year says it will hand out record bonuses just seems like those at the very top are living a record life of luxury while everyone else continues to suffer.

So I did not say that was the purpose to it, which is what you are arguing against. But that is nonetheless going to be the perception of reality in terms of the disconnect between what my staff is going through economically in their own lives and what they read about for the investment bankers.
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your staff has the option of changing careers if they don't like their position in the corporate world, period.
 
#64
#64
lawgator1 said:
That one of them that very same year says it will hand out record bonuses just seems like those at the very top are living a record life of luxury while everyone else continues to suffer.

So I did not say that was the purpose to it, which is what you are arguing against. But that is nonetheless going to be the perception of reality in terms of the disconnect between what my staff is going through economically in their own lives and what they read about for the investment bankers.
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so you personally don't believe this then?

and goldman paid back the tarp money (which they never asked for) WITH INTEREST. The average american made money on goldman sacs.

do you realize how many jobs these investment bankers at goldman are creating? even if you disregard the fact that they raise capital to a) keep people employed and b) that create jobs. what about the support staff? \

just because you are screwing your own staff that doesn't mean goldman is the bad guy.
 
#66
#66
droski said:
so you personally don't believe this then?

and goldman paid back the tarp money (which they never asked for) WITH INTEREST. The average american made money on goldman sacs.

do you realize how many jobs these investment bankers at goldman are creating? even if you disregard the fact that they raise capital to a) keep people employed and b) that create jobs. what about the support staff? \

just because you are screwing your own staff that doesn't mean goldman is the bad guy.
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It's damn hard to debate with such a deeply rooted Marxian bourgeoisie v. proletariat view of the world. It's nonsensical in our proven capitalist society, but many still believe that being born merits equality of outcomes.
 
#67
#67
droski said:
so you personally don't believe this then?

and goldman paid back the tarp money (which they never asked for) WITH INTEREST. The average american made money on goldman sacs.

do you realize how many jobs these investment bankers at goldman are creating? even if you disregard the fact that they raise capital to a) keep people employed and b) that create jobs. what about the support staff? \

just because you are screwing your own staff that doesn't mean goldman is the bad guy.
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droski said:
is lawgator cutting his salary to help out his support staff?
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I debated mentioning that precisely because I knew you'd paint it as me "screwing" my support staff.

First, I am also now paying the same thing they are for my own health insurance. Second, no one has taken a salary cut. Third, I didn't get any TARP money.

The situations are totally different.

As to your other question, no, I don't happen to believe that there is anything theoretically wrong with paying out big bonuses to the GS execs. I think if I were a signficant shareholder I'd have a problem with it, but who is to say where exactly the line is between executive largesse versus them having the best people around to make the company be profitable and for my stock to increase in value?

I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that if you want to know why Obama rode this wave of resentment into office, I've got an answer for you.
 
#68
#68
lawgator1 said:
I debated mentioning that precisely because I knew you'd paint it as me "screwing" my support staff.

First, I am also now paying the same thing they are for my own health insurance. Second, no one has taken a salary cut. Third, I didn't get any TARP money.

The situations are totally different.

As to your other question, no, I don't happen to believe that there is anything theoretically wrong with paying out big bonuses to the GS execs. I think if I were a signficant shareholder I'd have a problem with it, but who is to say where exactly the line is between executive largesse versus them having the best people around to make the company be profitable and for my stock to increase in value?

I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that if you want to know why Obama rode this wave of resentment into office, I've got an answer for you.
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any significant shareholder who voices a complaint with this should be summarily paid for his shares and asked to depart.
 
#69
#69
lawgator1 said:
I debated mentioning that precisely because I knew you'd paint it as me "screwing" my support staff.

First, I am also now paying the same thing they are for my own health insurance. Second, no one has taken a salary cut. Third, I didn't get any TARP money.

The situations are totally different.

As to your other question, no, I don't happen to believe that there is anything theoretically wrong with paying out big bonuses to the GS execs. I think if I were a signficant shareholder I'd have a problem with it, but who is to say where exactly the line is between executive largesse versus them having the best people around to make the company be profitable and for my stock to increase in value?

I understand what you are saying. I'm saying that if you want to know why Obama rode this wave of resentment into office, I've got an answer for you.
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but why aren't you lowering your salary to make up the difference? arent' you concerned that your support staff will feel you are making big money while they are hurting? and goldman handed back the tarp money with interest. they have contributed more than you have by far.

and as BPV said if you are a shareholder you can sell your shares. if significant shareholders had a problem with it they would a) replace the board or b) sell their shares. as for "who is to say where exactly the line is between executive largesse versus them having the best people around to make the company be profitable and for my stock to increase in value" that would be the CEO and the people the board elected.

Obama rode the wave of bush being an idiot and a crappy president. the next president will ride the wave of obama being a socialist and an idiot.
 
#70
#70
droski said:
but why aren't you lowering your salary to make up the difference? arent' you concerned that your support staff will feel you are making big money while they are hurting? and goldman handed back the tarp money with interest. they have contributed more than you have by far.

and as BPV said if you are a shareholder you can sell your shares. if significant shareholders had a problem with it they would a) replace the board or b) sell their shares. as for "who is to say where exactly the line is between executive largesse versus them having the best people around to make the company be profitable and for my stock to increase in value" that would be the CEO and the people the board elected.

Obama rode the wave of bush being an idiot and a crappy president. the next president will ride the wave of obama being a socialist and an idiot.
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The support staff don't pay taxes to keep my business afloat. They are extremely well paid for what they do. No one ever quits our firm.
 
#71
#71
lawgator1 said:
The support staff don't pay taxes to keep my business afloat. They are extremely well paid for what they do. No one ever quits our firm.
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but your benefiting while they are hurting. don't you realize the type of resentment that creates? why do you deserve to make more money than your support staff and goldman employees don't deserve more money than the average american?

and the billions in taxes goldman and their employees pay every year mean nothing to the average american?
 
#72
#72
droski said:
but your benefiting while they are hurting. don't you realize the type of resentment that creates? why do you deserve to make more money than your support staff and goldman employees don't deserve more money than the average american?

and the billions in taxes goldman and their employees pay every year mean nothing to the average american?
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Trying to analogize a multi-billion dollar publicly-traded international investment bank to my five lawyer, 6 staffers outfit just doesn't work very well.
 
#73
#73
lawgator1 said:
Trying to analogize a multi-billion dollar publicly-traded international investment bank to my five lawyer, 6 staffers outfit just doesn't work very well.
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BS. You get paid more than your staff and more than the average american because you bring in the revenue. Don't be pissed because goldman employees bring it a craploap more than you do and are paid accordingly. why goldman (which is a firm filled with democrats btw) should give a crap about the average american any more than you do is beyond me.
 
#74
#74
droski said:
BS. You get paid more than your staff and more than the average american because you bring in the revenue. Don't be pissed because goldman employees bring it a craploap more than you do and are paid accordingly. why goldman (which is a firm filled with democrats btw) should give a crap about the average american any more than you do is beyond me.
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You continue to misstate my point. I am not saying it is theoretically wrong to pay for performance like that. I'm saying that doing so, in this environment, is going to breed resentment. Why can't we both be right on this?
 
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#75
#75
lawgator1 said:
You conitnue to misstate my point. I am not saying it is theoretically wrong to pay for performance like that. I'm saying that doing so, in this environment, is going to breed resentment. Why can't we both be right on this?
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This may be true, but the people who would resent these bonuses are the same people that waste their day watching "John and Kate plus 8" or "Judge Judy" and wonder why they don't rake in money like the big shots at GS.
 
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