File under: What are they thinking?

#76
#76
lawgator1 said:
You continue to misstate my point. I am not saying it is theoretically wrong to pay for performance like that. I'm saying that doing so, in this environment, is going to breed resentment. Why can't we both be right on this?
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and why do we/you give a crap if it breeds resentment? the title of this thread is "what are they thinking?" as i said previously goldman is run by a bunch of democrats. most probably voted for obama. you seem to be turning this into your ridiculous argument that the average american sees republicans as greedy bastards. well these aren't republicans. there are ex goldman execs in the obama administration. why aren't you up in arms about how this will hurt obama?
 
#77
#77
KB5252 said:
This may be true, but the people who would resent these bonuses are the same people that waste their day watching "John and Kate plus 8" or "Judge Judy" and wonder why they don't rake in money like the big shots at GS.
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Yup, and there's way more of them than people who get such bonuses.
 
#78
#78
droski said:
and why do we/you give a crap if it breeds resentment? the title of this thread is "what are they thinking?" as i said previously goldman is run by a bunch of democrats. most probably voted for obama. you seem to be turning this into your ridiculous argument that the average american sees republicans as greedy bastards. well these aren't republicans. there are ex goldman execs in the obama administration. why aren't you up in arms about how this will hurt obama?
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I guess from my perspective when I say "What are they thinking?" I mean that they are inviting the very thing they would presumably complain about, which is regulation and oversight.
 
#79
#79
lawgator1 said:
I guess from my perspective when I say "What are they thinking?" I mean we should abolish American Capitalism for the collective good based on the perception of others. I mean government is obviously over qualified when it comes to matters of business!
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:ill_h4h:
 
#80
#80
It will breed resentment if the press covers the issue the way you've presented it - as systemic inequity without acknowledging the performance of GS and the reason they earned bonuses. In and of itself, it is not a resentment catalyst.

You've really got this talk radio thing down - give a one-sided presentation and appeal to "those that are getting screwed by the man".
 
#81
#81
lawgator1 said:
I guess from my perspective when I say "What are they thinking?" I mean that they are inviting the very thing they would presumably complain about, which is regulation and oversight.
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wait if obama isn't turning us into france (as you say) than why would they be inviting further regulation and oversight? there are no government funds in goldman sacs.
 
#82
#82
lawgator1 said:
I guess from my perspective when I say "What are they thinking?" I mean that they are inviting the very thing they would presumably complain about, which is regulation and oversight.
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which will be able to pass because the gov't leaders realize the people know nothing about what's going on and they can sell it as bad for the economy. They prey on the uneducated and it works.
 
#83
#83
lawgator1 said:
That's an absurd straw man argument. Instead of taking what I am actually saying and dealing with that, you re-cast my position into something that is so ridiculous it is much easier defeated.

I am not saying GS is paying out bonuses "solely to screw the little man."

What I am saying is that the public perception of this is going to be bewilderment. We have 10 percent unemployment and most people are still looking at massive losses in their retirement funds. But, the cost of gas is going up (again) and even when the price of oil is actually coming down, employers are cutting benefits (I know I just did to the people working for me -- they are having to pay a portion of their own health insurance for the first time in the 8 years we've been open), and of course the housing market remains in the tank.

And as you all are fond of pointing out, our children are being saddled with enormous debt, much of it we are told in order to keep these investment banks from going under.

That one of them that very same year says it will hand out record bonuses just seems like those at the very top are living a record life of luxury while everyone else continues to suffer.

So I did not say that was the purpose to it, which is what you are arguing against. But that is nonetheless going to be the perception of reality in terms of the disconnect between what my staff is going through economically in their own lives and what they read about for the investment bankers.
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This whole thing sort of clashes with your, "If I were a shareholder I'd be furious" statement.
 
#84
#84
volinbham said:
It will breed resentment if the press covers the issue the way you've presented it - as systemic inequity without acknowledging the performance of GS and the reason they earned bonuses. In and of itself, it is not a resentment catalyst.
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how do you think the press will cover it? Will the story start off with (A) the amount of money these people made for their company or (B) with their obscene bonus numbers flashed on the screen?
 
#85
#85
utvolpj said:
how do you think the press will cover it? Will the story start off with (A) the amount of money these people made for their company or (B) with their obscene bonus numbers flashed on the screen?
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Hmmmm. I'll have to think about that one...:)
 
#86
#86
lawgator1 said:
Yup, and there's way more of them than people who get such bonuses.
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I would like to think that there are many more hardworking Americans out there making money rather than sitting on their cans and letting others meet their basic needs. However I fear you may be right, more and more Americans seem to believe that the government owes them something beyond what is afforded them in the constitution.

In any case we should care very little what people like this think, they contribute very little to society, in fact they probably drain more from the system individually then these individuals at GS are putting in via taxes. Screw those people, they don't have the right to complain.
 
#87
#87
lawgator1 said:
I guess from my perspective when I say "What are they thinking?" I mean that they are inviting the very thing they would presumably complain about, which is regulation and oversight.
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Only for people who believe that hard work and being the best at what you do shouldn't be rewarded. It shouldn't matter that they complain, it isn't any of their business.
 
#88
#88
utvolpj said:
how do you think the press will cover it? Will the story start off with (A) the amount of money these people made for their company or (B) with their obscene bonus numbers flashed on the screen?
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It will be B. And on top of that they'll insinuate that GS leadership paid back the TARP money as quickly as they could so as to be able to pay themselves the big bonuses.
 
#89
#89
lawgator1 said:
It will be B. And on top of that they'll insinuate that GS leadership paid back the TARP money as quickly as they could so as to be able to pay themselves the big bonuses.
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I hope the populace isn't as anti-business as you.

The TARP was intended to stabilize the financial system. From many accounts, GS didn't need any TARP funding but agreed to go along.

As soon as they were allowed, they paid back the money yet they are to be demonized for paying back (with interest) money they never needed so they can go on with business as usual?
 
#90
#90
volinbham said:
I hope the populace isn't as anti-business as you.

The TARP was intended to stabilize the financial system. From many accounts, GS didn't need any TARP funding but agreed to go along.

As soon as they were allowed, they paid back the money yet they are to be demonized for paying back (with interest) money they never needed so they can go on with business as usual?
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I am not anti- big business. I will admit to thinking they often take too short a view of things and fail to correctly value perception and good will. But that's me.
 
#91
#91
volinbham said:
It will breed resentment if the press covers the issue the way you've presented it - as systemic inequity without acknowledging the performance of GS and the reason they earned bonuses. In and of itself, it is not a resentment catalyst.

You've really got this talk radio thing down - give a one-sided presentation and appeal to "those that are getting screwed by the man".
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LG is exactly what he claims to abhor!
 
#92
#92
lawgator1 said:
I am not anti- big business. I will admit to thinking they often take too short a view of things and fail to correctly value perception and good will. But that's me.
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Exactly, damn big business!

We need government to step in and ensure equality!
 
#93
#93
lawgator1 said:
I am not anti- big business. I will admit to thinking they often take too short a view of things and fail to correctly value perception and good will. But that's me.
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Goldman isn't failing to value anything properly. They are providing a high end brokerage business at many different levels. They just happen to be better at it than everyone else because they pay huge bonuses, which allows them to continue their trend of hiring the best. That self-perpetuation is exactly what people buying the stock are all about.

You and Joe Sixpack simply have no idea what their business is and how it operates.
 
#94
#94
BigPapaVol said:
Goldman isn't failing to value anything properly. They are providing a high end brokerage business at many different levels. They just happen to be better at it than everyone else because they pay huge bonuses, which allows them to continue their trend of hiring the best. That self-perpetuation is exactly what people buying the stock are all about.

You and Joe Sixpack simply have no idea what their business is and how it operates.
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LG wants government intervention!
 
#95
#95
BigPapaVol said:
Goldman isn't failing to value anything properly. They are providing a high end brokerage business at many different levels. They just happen to be better at it than everyone else because they pay huge bonuses, which allows them to continue their trend of hiring the best. That self-perpetuation is exactly what people buying the stock are all about.

You and Joe Sixpack simply have no idea what their business is and how it operates.
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the funny part is that goldman is going to run the tarp companies which have obama's sainted salary caps into the ground in the next few years.
 
#96
#96
lawgator1 said:
I am not anti- big business. I will admit to thinking they often take too short a view of things and fail to correctly value perception and good will. But that's me.
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If you look at the language you've used to describe this company and it's actions, it's pretty clear how you see things. Perhaps you don't recognize your own views?

We're here to help you understand yourself.
 
#97
#97
volinbham said:
If you look at the language you've used to describe this company and it's actions, it's pretty clear how you see things. Perhaps you don't recognize your own views?

We're here to help you understand yourself.
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Oh, I definitely am suspicious of an economic system that can have such apparent disparity, not so much in pure income terms, but more in terms of one end heading skyward at a record rate, the other end plummeting at an even faster rate.

But putting my own concerns aside, my point is that as long as our economy has such glaring disparity its going to be a source of ill-will and political value to those who support regulation (in its broadest terms).
 
#98
#98
lawgator1 said:
Oh, I definitely am suspicious of an economic system that can have such apparent disparity, not so much in pure income terms, but more in terms of one end heading skyward at a record rate, the other end plummeting at an even faster rate..
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the middle class in this country are the richest middle class in the world.
 
#99
#99
droski said:
the middle class in this country are the richest middle class in the world.
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Irrelevant.

If the middle class perceives that the real dollar value of their salaries is plumetting, that the tax burden on them to bail out those who borrowed when they shouldn't, and who traded when they shouldn't, is growing ever higher ... and then they see that the investment bankers made record profits and bonuses, its just not going to go over well.
 
#100
#100
lawgator1 said:
Irrelevant.

If the middle class perceives that the real dollar value of their salaries is plumetting, that the tax burden on them to bail out those who borrowed when they shouldn't, and who traded when they shouldn't, is growing ever higher ... and then they see that the investment bankers made record profits and bonuses, its just not going to go over well.
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and they are going to take it out on whom exactly? edit: and to assume they will notice and give a crap in big enough numbers for anyone to give a crap is a big assumption.
 
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