First Temple seal found in Jerusalem

#51
#51
The problem I have with that line of thinking is that it's a little tenuous to say you don't fully understand something and then in the same breath talk about it being black and white.
 
#52
#52
T-TownVol said:
But make no mistake, the people and denominations that do not obey the black and white of the Bible, will not live forever in Heaven.
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and that's the part that always gets me with every religion. They think that their book says they are the only people worthy. To me it seems like an amazing piece of elitism on their part. You truly believe there is not a single person worthy of heaven that isn't a Christian? Not a Jew, Muslim, Buddist, etc worthy in this world but only a Christian?
 
#53
#53
GAVol said:
The problem I have with that line of thinking is that it's a little tenuous to say you don't fully understand something and then in the same breath talk about it being black and white.
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As stated in a previous post, the way to salvation is black and white and there for all to understand.
The reasons for what God has done and the judgements that he brought down on peolpe in the Old Testament, those things I will never understand.
We all deserve the rath of God, but by his Grace, something you do not have to understand, just believe in, he lets us live.
 
#55
#55
T-TownVol said:
As stated in a previous post, the way to salvation is black and white and there for all to understand.
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there are millions of people in the last 2000 yrs who have no concept of Jesus or the bible. What makes these people undesirable to your god?
 
#56
#56
utvolpj said:
and that's the part that always gets me with every religion. They think that their book says they are the only people worthy. To me it seems like an amazing piece of elitism on their part. You truly believe there is not a single person worthy of heaven that isn't a Christian? Not a Jew, Muslim, Buddist, etc worthy in this world but only a Christian?
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Those are not my words, they are in the Bible.
The Bible is for everyone. But it is very clear that Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven.
I am a disciple of Christ and I am commanded by him to speak the word of God to those who are not believers.
Religion is another man made term. There is only one Church and Jesus paid for it with his life.
I have not professed any one "religion" only the true word of the Bible.
 
#58
#58
utvolpj said:
and that's the part that always gets me with every religion. They think that their book says they are the only people worthy. To me it seems like an amazing piece of elitism on their part. You truly believe there is not a single person worthy of heaven that isn't a Christian? Not a Jew, Muslim, Buddist, etc worthy in this world but only a Christian?
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Maybe having faith, period, is your salvation....:whistling:
 
#59
#59
utvolpj said:
there are millions of people in the last 2000 yrs who have no concept of Jesus or the bible. What makes these people undesirable to your god?
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God wishes EVERY person to be saved. The fact that millions of people have no concept of Jesus is something that ALL Christians down through the ages will have to answer for.
This is one of the things that I will ask God when I see him, "What about all the people that were never told of your Grace", "are they hear in Heaven". That is one of the things we do not know. But our job while on earth is to take the Gospel to every Nation.
 
#63
#63
T-TownVol said:
Those are not my words, they are in the Bible.
The Bible is for everyone. But it is very clear that Jesus is the ONLY way to Heaven.
I am a disciple of Christ and I am commanded by him to speak the word of God to those who are not believers.
Religion is another man made term. There is only one Church and Jesus paid for it with his life.
I have not professed any one "religion" only the true word of the Bible.
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Obviously, as I think you have pointed out, it is your faith that allows you to make these claims. And, your faith allows you to tell others they are wrong. And, of course, you realize that others' faith tells them to do the same to you. Your faith tells you that the Bible contains the answers, while to many others, their faith contends that at most it only contains some answers - wisdom, if you will. Faith is crazy like that, because of the nature of faith ... all who have it are right (by their faith) and wrong (by others' faiths).

What I do know is that this apparent paradox of faith shouldn't prevent someone from thinking about the way in which they would like to live their life, treat themselves, treat the ones they love, and treat the ones they don't love. I firmly believe that finding a way to commit to core value structures in life is essential to one's well-being.

The funny part about where I am now is that I can see the importance of accepting the paradox and living with faith - but seeing a paradox and being comfortable with a paradox are two different things. I'm just hoping that I can come to grips with that and settle into my commitments to a higher degree.
 
#64
#64
T-TownVol said:
You were just testing me...I knew it!
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I wouldn't say that. We were having a serious discussion. Actually, I was teasing you more there than testing you. I was implying that faith in something could be one's salvation....

We disagree on some points here, obviously...but I don't disagree with where you are ... my point of contention is that questioning to gain a better understanding is a healthy thing....and as long as someone can be comfortable with the possibility of never finding an "answer," then it would be hard to convince me that it is a negative exercise to engage in.
 
#66
#66
Man...it's 20 'til 5 here. I should get to bed. The big advantage is that my meetings don't start until 11:30 tomorrow...so I should be able to get some sleep. Stupid jet lag....I was sleepy all day, and now I'm wide awake.
 
#67
#67
TennTradition said:
Obviously, as I think you have pointed out, it is your faith that allows you to make these claims. And, your faith allows you to tell others they are wrong. And, of course, you realize that others' faith tells them to do the same to you. Your faith tells you that the Bible contains the answers, while to many others, their faith contends that at most it only contains some answers - wisdom, if you will. Faith is crazy like that, because of the nature of faith ... all who have it are right (by their faith) and wrong (by others' faiths).

What I do know is that this apparent paradox of faith shouldn't prevent someone from thinking about the way in which they would like to live their life, treat themselves, treat the ones they love, and treat the ones they don't love. I firmly believe that finding a way to commit to core value structures in life is essential to one's well-being.

The funny part about where I am now is that I can see the importance of accepting the paradox and living with faith - but seeing a paradox and being comfortable with a paradox are two different things. I'm just hoping that I can come to grips with that and settle into my commitments to a higher degree.
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This commemt brings us back to my original post about the ten commandments. God gave the people of Isreal those laws to guide the way they lived. And they need to be observed today more that ever.
Jesus said that not all will accept salvation. Please continue to seek out the answers. You can PM me with further questions. I will not know many of the answers, but the Bible is my text book. God Bless You!
 
#70
#70
utvolpj said:
and that's the part that always gets me with every religion. They think that their book says they are the only people worthy. To me it seems like an amazing piece of elitism on their part. You truly believe there is not a single person worthy of heaven that isn't a Christian? Not a Jew, Muslim, Buddist, etc worthy in this world but only a Christian?
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John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

Nobody is worthy of Heaven. That includes Christians, Jews etc.

It's not elitism either. I follow Christ, that is what He said. If it was elitism we would be trying to hide it, instead of as you have said "forcing it down people's throats." It is "forced down your throat" because as a Christian I want you to be there with me. The correct methods aren't always used but if it was elitism why would we be trying to spread the gospel?
 
#71
#71
utvolpj said:
ok then, do you really believe human life started with 1 man and 1 woman? That there is no such thing as evolution?
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Why not?

I would much rather believe a loving God created us with a purpose than evolving from apes or a Big Bang.

Do species evolve and change of course.

Could God have used evolution to create man, animals etc? Yes.

Could God have created everything without evolution? Yes.
 
#72
#72
JZVOL said:
John 14:6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."
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Must have sucked to have been born in the few years before Jesus' birth. Here you think you know what you need to do and BAM! they change the rules.

JZVOL said:
It's not elitism either. I follow Christ, that is what He said. If it was elitism we would be trying to hide it, instead of as you have said "forcing it down people's throats." It is "forced down your throat" because as a Christian I want you to be there with me. The correct methods aren't always used but if it was elitism why would we be trying to spread the gospel?
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I view it as elitism because you are saying "I have the only answer, you must be like me to get there. Don't like it then you can't be in our club." Sounds more like Augusta CC.
 
#73
#73
I agree that it must have sucked to live before Christ came to die for our sins. God often struck sinners down on the spot, before he decided to send his Son to the Earth. But, do not be fooled into thinking that the B.C. crowd did not know of and fear God's rath.

Through grace, we no longer have to worry about instant judgement from God.
 
#74
#74
utvolpj said:
Must have sucked to have been born in the few years before Jesus' birth. Here you think you know what you need to do and BAM! they change the rules.



I view it as elitism because you are saying "I have the only answer, you must be like me to get there. Don't like it then you can't be in our club." Sounds more like Augusta CC.
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Why? At some point everyone will be judged. In the Old Testament they sacrificed animals (blood) to cover their sins. Thankfully Jesus sacrificed Himself (blood) to cover our sins.

Even in the Old Testament one had to have faith in God (Yahweh) and follow his commandments. They did not go to Heaven but rather Sheol or the underworld. There were three parts, the lake of fire separating the followers of God from the others.

When Christ died He spent three days in Sheol and took the Old Testament Saints with Him to Heaven. That part of Sheol remains empty.

Also these same people would have known about the prophecy and scriptures of a coming Messiah. When Christ came some believed He was The Messiah and some did not.

Deut. 29:29 "Some things are hidden. They belong to the LORD our God. But the things that have been revealed in these teachings belong to us and to our children forever. We must obey every word of these teachings."
 
#75
#75
utvolpj said:
Must have sucked to have been born in the few years before Jesus' birth. Here you think you know what you need to do and BAM! they change the rules.



I view it as elitism because you are saying "I have the only answer, you must be like me to get there. Don't like it then you can't be in our club." Sounds more like Augusta CC.
Click to expand...

Elitists are only elite if they are isolated and try to keep others down or separated from them. I will only speak for me but, Jesus is the complete opposite of an elitist.

John 14:2
"In my Father's house are many mansions if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you."

That is not elitism.
 
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