Freeze and Dabo negative religious recruit UT

#351
#351
JDisThereThere said:
The thing for me is there is no evidence other than the Bible, and the main thing that made me an atheist was reading the Bible with an open mind.
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Yeah I don't think most people refuse to believe because of a lack of evidence. It's a heart problem that we all are born with.
 
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#353
#353
JDisThereThere said:
Pascal's wager is a con. As Hitchens used to say, "We are born sick and then commanded on threat of eternal torture to be well". I just don't find god as loving and forgiving as a lot of people do.
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I believe your error (and Hitchens') is the assumption that you earn salvation. The Bible is clear that no man can "earn" his place is heaven. It is given to you. All you do is accept it. That seems pretty loving and forgiving to me.
 
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#354
#354
BondJamesBond said:
I believe your error (and Hitchens') is the assumption that you earn salvation. The Bible is clear that no man can "earn" his place is heaven. It is given to you. All you do is accept it. That seems pretty loving and forgiving to me.
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So if a devoted Christian does a massacre, he gets a spot in heaven?
 
#356
#356
BruinVol said:
If he sincerely repents and finds God again afterwards yes indeed
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That's insane. The reason I think most people have a religion is because of a theory presented by an renaissance scientist ( Pascal I think). Basically, its basically betting if there is a heaven or not. It's a more risky bet to not accept there is not a heaven than to accept heaven. It's upside vs. Downside.
 
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#357
#357
BondJamesBond said:
The Bible is clear that no man can "earn" his place is heaven. It is given to you. All you do is accept it. That seems pretty loving and forgiving to me.
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That seems pretty much like semantics to me, and a dull game to play for someone who is smart and powerful enough to create the universe.

I can speak only for myself. I grew up in an extremely religious household and could find no peace until I abandoned that way of thinking and accepted that life is precious, finite, and pretty much just physics and biology. It's a lonely rock we're stranded on, and kindness and integrity are the only things we have to give each other, so they're worth the effort.
 
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#358
#358
Burger said:
That's insane. The reason I think most people have a religion is because of a theory presented by an renaissance scientist ( Pascal I think). Basically, its basically betting if there is a heaven or not. It's a more risky bet to not accept there is not a heaven than to accept heaven. It's upside vs. Downside.
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Completely agree it sounds insane but IMO it's the beauty of the hope given in Christ

We all are some bad natured SOBs but regardless how bad our actions there is an out
 
#359
#359
Burger said:
So if a devoted Christian does a massacre, he gets a spot in heaven?
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Without a God, why do you have an objection to mass murder? I mean you have an innate conscience that signals to you that some things are wrong. That is contrary to the idea of survival of the fittest. We don't find that in other lifeforms on our planet.
 
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#360
#360
therickbol said:
Without a God, why do you have an objection to mass murder? I mean you have an innate conscience that signals to you that some things are wrong. That is contrary to the idea of survival of the fittest. We don't find that in other lifeforms on our planet.
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Ever read the Old Testament? Apparently God doesn't mind to commit mass murder as long as it's by his people and in his name. Sound familiar anyone?
 
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#362
#362
I just want to say, reading this thread has strengthened my faith in the process of the evolution of mankind. All sides have presented their views with relative maturity and civility.

My own views are based primarily in life experience and the theories of such men as Maslow, Piaget and Wilber, while not discounting the spiritual aspect of man. I believe one day we will reach a level of human development where we can explain these difficult questions scientifically.

Until then we can only see the world as our developmental level allows, whether it be based in cultural traditions, allegorical stories, or scientific evidence. We just have to make allowances for each other, and not resort to the intolerant brutalities of past generations. JMO.
 
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#363
#363
volfan_89 said:
Ever read the Old Testament? Apparently God doesn't mind to commit mass murder as long as it's by his people and in his name. Sound familiar anyone?
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Ummm, you did not get the point being made. Why do you object to God or anyone else committing mass murder?
 
#365
#365
volfan_89 said:
Just trying to point out that using God or the bible to establish morals is not the best idea.
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It's not the idea of what is or is not moral. It's the idea that humans have some natural conscious that dictates to them that there are certain things that they know are wrong. Where does that come from? Other species operate on survival of the fittest. No consciousness about their actions.
 
#366
#366
therickbol said:
It's not the idea of what is or is not moral. It's the idea that humans have some natural conscious that dictates to them that there are certain things that they know are wrong. Where does that come from? Other species operate on survival of the fittest. No consciousness about their actions.
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So your thesis is that because we have a conscious there must be a God?
 
#369
#369
therickbol said:
It's not the idea of what is or is not moral. It's the idea that humans have some natural conscious that dictates to them that there are certain things that they know are wrong. Where does that come from? Other species operate on survival of the fittest. No consciousness about their actions.
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That is a scary thought isn't it, Humanity totally ruled by the law of natural selection? Only the strongest and most ruthless survive.
 
#370
#370
Ulysees E. McGill said:
That is a scary thought isn't it, Humanity totally ruled by the law of natural selection? Only the strongest and most ruthless survive.
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Natural selection is only the mechanism by which groups develop certain phenotypical expressions over the generations. I don't think there's any evidence of ruthlessness being a desired heritable trait of nature.

IMO, there are always anomalies, but nature seems to correct and rebalance over time.
 
#371
#371
glichtenwalter said:
God is the opposite of sin. He is perfect and cannot abide sin. Our sins seperate us from God. God doesn't want anyone to suffer in hell for eternity. He wants us all to be reunited with Him in heaven. However, we cannot because we are sinful creatures. That is why Jesus was sent to the Earth. He lived a blameless sinless life. He was then beaten, tortured, tormented, and executed. He was sacrificed so that all who have faith in Him and seek to live as he lived may be redeemed to the Father. God doesn't punish us with eternal damnation. We punish ourselves by not placing our faith in God and Jesus. Our actions or inactions are what damn us. Not God.
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I've heard this before, that we send ourselves to hell instead of god sending us to hell, but I've never bought that based upon the apparent nature of god. Here's my logical process to think through this:

1. God created everything, including Satan and Hell.
2. God created the rules and criteria for which souls are judged.
3. God is the one who carries out that judgement.
4. Everything happens according to God's divine plan.
5. Therefore, God is ultimately responsible for everything, including everyone who has been sent to hell.

I'll put it another way. Personally, I don't want to go to hell. Obviously, who would? I've never killed anyone, never robbed anyone, never raped anyone, never kidnapped anyone, never burned anyone's house down, never really beaten anyone up (except for on a football field), to be honest, I don't think I've ever truly wronged anyone in my life. Of course I've lied (who hasn't?), but I don't think I told such a nasty lie that it ended up really hurting someone. Obviously I was naughty kid sometimes and disobeyed my parents (yet again who hasn't?), but again, never to the point where I truly hurt them.

My point being is that I consider myself a good person. I'm a pretty kind, compassionate, loving, and thoughtful dude. I think anyone in my family, friends, and people I've met would say the same thing. The thing is I just can't bring myself to believe in god based upon the available evidence. There just isn't sufficient evidence to convince me that he actually exists. It's like how am I supposed to believe in something that I don't. I compare it to Santa Claus (I'm assuming we're all adults here but Spoiler Alert anyways), could any of you suddenly just force yourself to start believing in Santa? It's like once you've figured out that he isn't real, then it's hard to go back and bring yourself to believing that he is.

Yet because I can't bring myself to believe in God, based on the lack of evidence, I deserve to be tortured in Hell for eternity? Whaaaat? Not 5 years, 10 years, 50 years. Not even a sentence equivalent to my lifespan or 2 lifespans or 10 lifespans. No! FOREVER! Infinite punishment for finite crimes is illogical and unjust.

You also have to consider that God supposedly created each of us to be exactly the way we are. He intricately designed and planned our life. He supposedly designed me to be born a Christian and then lose my faith and become an agnostic atheist. He designed the Muslims to be Muslim, the Buddhists to be Buddhist, the Mormons to be Mormon, etc. Therefore didn't he condemn anyone who doesn't get saved in their lifetime to eternal damnation before they were even born? I know people call both Jesus and God the savior. Yet what are we being saved from? Hell? Yes. Our Sins? Yes. But ultimately we are being saved from God's judgement. He's the boss, he makes the rules, it's his universe and he is responsible for every single last bit of it. If he exists...
 
#372
#372
BondJamesBond said:
I believe your error (and Hitchens') is the assumption that you earn salvation. The Bible is clear that no man can "earn" his place is heaven. It is given to you. All you do is accept it. That seems pretty loving and forgiving to me.
Click to expand...
Yet what happens to you if you can't bring yourself to accept it? Yeah God is real lovable when you believe in him, but if you don't, he is the exact opposite of loving and forgiving. Sending someone to eternal torment is about the worst thing anyone could do. Hitler doesn't even deserve eternal punishment. He deserved to be punished for sure, but no one deserves to be tortured until the end of time.

Also, the supposed reason we are given salvation is because Jesus died on the cross. Right? Can someone explain to me how a man (either the son of God or not) being crucified 2000 years ago saves me from sins or absolves me of my responsibilities towards my fellow human beings in any way, shape, or form?

I find it rather hideous that a person can be ridiculously horrible towards others, kill people, rape people, rob people, etc., but then can be allowed into heaven if they just repent of their sins and accept God. Yet I, who couldn't bring myself to do something as evil as murder or rape, and if I somehow could bring myself to do something that wicked, would not be able to live with myself and would kill myself out of guilt and shame. I deserve eternal damnation simply because I don't believe that God exists, but the guy who ran around ruining and destroying peoples' lives, truly hurting people, gets saved? Not cool God, not cool at all.
 
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#373
#373
JDisThereThere said:
Yet what happens to you if you can't bring yourself to accept it? Yeah God is real lovable when you believe in him, but if you don't, he is the exact opposite of loving and forgiving. Sending someone to eternal torment is about the worst thing anyone could do. Hitler doesn't even deserve eternal punishment. He deserved to be punished for sure, but no one deserves to be tortured until the end of time.

Also, the supposed reason we are given salvation is because Jesus died on the cross. Right? Can someone explain to me how a man (either the son of God or not) being crucified 2000 years ago saves me from sins or absolves me of my responsibilities towards my fellow human beings in any way, shape, or form?

I find it rather hideous that a person can be ridiculously horrible towards others, kill people, rape people, rob people, etc., but then can be allowed into heaven if they just repent of their sins and accept God. Yet I, who couldn't bring myself to do something as evil as murder or rape, and if I somehow could bring myself to do something that wicked, would not be able to live with myself and would kill myself out of guilt and shame. I deserve eternal damnation simply because I don't believe that God exists, but the guy who ran around ruining and destroying peoples' lives, truly hurting people, gets saved? Not cool God, not cool at all.
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Have you read Revelations?
 
#374
#374
JDisThereThere said:
I've heard this before, that we send ourselves to hell instead of god sending us to hell, but I've never bought that based upon the apparent nature of god. Here's my logical process to think through this:

1. God created everything, including Satan and Hell.
2. God created the rules and criteria for which souls are judged.
3. God is the one who carries out that judgement.
4. Everything happens according to God's divine plan.
5. Therefore, God is ultimately responsible for everything, including everyone who has been sent to hell.

I'll put it another way. Personally, I don't want to go to hell. Obviously, who would? I've never killed anyone, never robbed anyone, never raped anyone, never kidnapped anyone, never burned anyone's house down, never really beaten anyone up (except for on a football field), to be honest, I don't think I've ever truly wronged anyone in my life. Of course I've lied (who hasn't?), but I don't think I told such a nasty lie that it ended up really hurting someone. Obviously I was naughty kid sometimes and disobeyed my parents (yet again who hasn't?), but again, never to the point where I truly hurt them.

My point being is that I consider myself a good person. I'm a pretty kind, compassionate, loving, and thoughtful dude. I think anyone in my family, friends, and people I've met would say the same thing. The thing is I just can't bring myself to believe in god based upon the available evidence. There just isn't sufficient evidence to convince me that he actually exists. It's like how am I supposed to believe in something that I don't. I compare it to Santa Claus (I'm assuming we're all adults here but Spoiler Alert anyways), could any of you suddenly just force yourself to start believing in Santa? It's like once you've figured out that he isn't real, then it's hard to go back and bring yourself to believing that he is.

Yet because I can't bring myself to believe in God, based on the lack of evidence, I deserve to be tortured in Hell for eternity? Whaaaat? Not 5 years, 10 years, 50 years. Not even a sentence equivalent to my lifespan or 2 lifespans or 10 lifespans. No! FOREVER! Infinite punishment for finite crimes is illogical and unjust.

You also have to consider that God supposedly created each of us to be exactly the way we are. He intricately designed and planned our life. He supposedly designed me to be born a Christian and then lose my faith and become an agnostic atheist. He designed the Muslims to be Muslim, the Buddhists to be Buddhist, the Mormons to be Mormon, etc. Therefore didn't he condemn anyone who doesn't get saved in their lifetime to eternal damnation before they were even born? I know people call both Jesus and God the savior. Yet what are we being saved from? Hell? Yes. Our Sins? Yes. But ultimately we are being saved from God's judgement. He's the boss, he makes the rules, it's his universe and he is responsible for every single last bit of it. If he exists...
Click to expand...

I've stated in another post that it requires faith on our part. I cannot see the wind but I see how the wind affects me and the world around me. Just as I can see God's affect on me and the world around me. God did not design anyone to be a particular religion or non-religion. He knows each of us intimately but will not force our belief or worship. Forced worship does not glorify Him. He gives us free will to choose Him or not. However, fair or unfair we find His rules those are the rules. I look at it like this. When I was a child I did not understand everything that my parents did or why. I did not have the cognitive skills to understand it. No matter how old we get we are still Gid's children and it is impossible for us to comprehend him. His is and ever will be beyond us. Trying to put a cause and a reason to everything is impossible. The rules are designed to guide us on a life like you described yours to be. We will fall short. We will sin. That is why He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him. That is why He came to Earth in human form, lived a blameless sinless life, and was sacrificed on the cross. It is through faith and belief in that sacrifice that we can be washed clean of our sins and be reconciled to God. Every sin is sin and God is the opposite of sin. We cannot be in God's presence without or sins being cleansed. I hope that everyone is able to find God and come to know and have faith in him. EVERYONE.
 
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