Freeze and Dabo negative religious recruit UT

#376
#376
JDisThereThere said:
Yet what happens to you if you can't bring yourself to accept it? Yeah God is real lovable when you believe in him, but if you don't, he is the exact opposite of loving and forgiving. Sending someone to eternal torment is about the worst thing anyone could do. Hitler doesn't even deserve eternal punishment. He deserved to be punished for sure, but no one deserves to be tortured until the end of time.

Also, the supposed reason we are given salvation is because Jesus died on the cross. Right? Can someone explain to me how a man (either the son of God or not) being crucified 2000 years ago saves me from sins or absolves me of my responsibilities towards my fellow human beings in any way, shape, or form?

I find it rather hideous that a person can be ridiculously horrible towards others, kill people, rape people, rob people, etc., but then can be allowed into heaven if they just repent of their sins and accept God. Yet I, who couldn't bring myself to do something as evil as murder or rape, and if I somehow could bring myself to do something that wicked, would not be able to live with myself and would kill myself out of guilt and shame. I deserve eternal damnation simply because I don't believe that God exists, but the guy who ran around ruining and destroying peoples' lives, truly hurting people, gets saved? Not cool God, not cool at all.
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JD, would you be interested in studying the Bible with me? You have a lot of relevant questions, and I feel they are fair to ask. You really have to delve into the Scriptures to find the answers, but I feel there are answers for you. Yes, it does take faith in so many things...faith that what God tells us is true. I can give you scriptures to help answer your questions, but I think a study via FaceTime or Skype or whatever would be easiest, as it would take a long time for me to type answers to you on here, and I don't think this is the best place to do all of this. I'm more than willing to set aside time every week, as often as you want to study and help answer your questions. Let me know if you are interested. :hi:
 
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#377
#377
JDisThereThere said:
Yet what happens to you if you can't bring yourself to accept it? Yeah God is real lovable when you believe in him, but if you don't, he is the exact opposite of loving and forgiving. Sending someone to eternal torment is about the worst thing anyone could do. Hitler doesn't even deserve eternal punishment. He deserved to be punished for sure, but no one deserves to be tortured until the end of time.

Also, the supposed reason we are given salvation is because Jesus died on the cross. Right? Can someone explain to me how a man (either the son of God or not) being crucified 2000 years ago saves me from sins or absolves me of my responsibilities towards my fellow human beings in any way, shape, or form?

I find it rather hideous that a person can be ridiculously horrible towards others, kill people, rape people, rob people, etc., but then can be allowed into heaven if they just repent of their sins and accept God. Yet I, who couldn't bring myself to do something as evil as murder or rape, and if I somehow could bring myself to do something that wicked, would not be able to live with myself and would kill myself out of guilt and shame. I deserve eternal damnation simply because I don't believe that God exists, but the guy who ran around ruining and destroying peoples' lives, truly hurting people, gets saved? Not cool God, not cool at all.
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Jesus was without sin. Everyone else in the history of this planet has sinned. Jesus did not. He was blameless and went willingly to his death. A sacrifice without blemish. That is why faith in Him and the sacrifice he made saves us. You are incorrect though. We all deserve eternal punishment. We are sinful and deserve separation from God. That is what hell is. Eternal separation from our creator. Which brings us back to Jesus. We all deserve punishment but he already paid the price for us. It just requires faith.

As far as the people that do evil and then repent at the end goes... A person that has lived an evil life is probably not going to pull the ole switcheroo at the last second. However, if it was a true repentance and acceptance of Jesus then they are saved. God doesn't count how long you have believed in Him. Only that you do. With that being said though God knows our hearts. Simple words will not save us. Faith.
 
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#378
#378
Burger said:
So if a devoted Christian does a massacre, he gets a spot in heaven?
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In Matthew, to not judge uses the Greek word Krinos. It means to not judge to death. The religious leaders in Jesus' day did just that. The only judge for eternal life is God. Because without eternal life, the alternative is eternal death apart from God. I say this to say it is not for Bruin or I to make the judgement on where someone such as this spends eternity. God knows and judges the person and the heart and all circumstances and he does it with complete fairness and justice. We can use our judgement in what is right and wrong. A massacre such as you describe to me does not seem to be a very Christian act that a follower of Christ would do. However, God will judge justly to determine eternal life or damnation for such a person. God has that authority not man. In my opinion, it does not look good for him. However, if in the future, he had a true repentant heart and asked for forgiveness, I would think if his heart and confession were pure and true, forgiveness is something that can be obtain by all. Even those who perform heinous and horrible acts. I would not easily forgive. However, I am not God which is probably a very good thing.
 
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#379
#379
glichtenwalter said:
I've stated in another post that it requires faith on our part. I cannot see the wind but I see how the wind affects me and the world around me. Just as I can see God's affect on me and the world around me. God did not design anyone to be a particular religion or non-religion. He knows each of us intimately but will not force our belief or worship. Forced worship does not glorify Him. He gives us free will to choose Him or not. However, fair or unfair we find His rules those are the rules. I look at it like this. When I was a child I did not understand everything that my parents did or why. I did not have the cognitive skills to understand it. No matter how old we get we are still Gid's children and it is impossible for us to comprehend him. His is and ever will be beyond us. Trying to put a cause and a reason to everything is impossible. The rules are designed to guide us on a life like you described yours to be. We will fall short. We will sin. That is why He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him. That is why He came to Earth in human form, lived a blameless sinless life, and was sacrificed on the cross. It is through faith and belief in that sacrifice that we can be washed clean of our sins and be reconciled to God. Every sin is sin and God is the opposite of sin. We cannot be in God's presence without or sins being cleansed. I hope that everyone is able to find God and come to know and have faith in him. EVERYONE.
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Man, you say things so much better than I can.

JD, I want to add one thing...Christians can fall from God's grace, too, and can end up lost and spend eternity in hell just like all other unbelievers. Revelation 2:10 tells us (after obeying the gospel), we have to continue living a faithful life until death in order to gain our crown of life in heaven.
 
#380
#380
OGbabyaviVol said:
Man, you say things so much better than I can.

JD, I want to add one thing...Christians can fall from God's grace, too, and can end up lost and spend eternity in hell just like all other unbelievers. Revelation 2:10 tells us (after obeying the gospel), we have to continue living a faithful life until death in order to gain our crown of life in heaven.
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:hi: I have really been inspired to grow in my faith recently. My daughter chose to be baptized and we have joined a small group. It is great to be able to know others and pray for others on a more intimate level. I have really been inspired lately. I would truly love for all to find their faith and begin their walk with Jesus.
 
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#381
#381
InVOLuntary said:
Have you read Revelations?
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Oh yeah, that fiery and brimstone-y ending that yearns for the apocalypse and destruction of the universe? Yep, read it. Thanks for reminding me that what you are alluding to (or what I suspect you are alluding to) in Revelations contradicts all the times that the Bible describes the fires of hell as being eternal. The fact that Revelations says that everyone in hell will basically be no more doesn't change the fact that the Bible previously mentions that hell would be everlasting. Although you could say that Revelations is the end of time, but then the souls in hell would still be tortured until the end of time. So I guess I have to thank god for the fact that I'll have to die a second horrible death after being in hell for a very long time, which at that point would be some kind of twisted, backwards mercy. Yeah, thanks a lot, all-loving, all-forgiving lord. :eek:lol:

You guys have to realize that using the Bible to convince me (or most any other atheist) isn't really going to work that well because I don't think the Bible is a special, magical book. I don't think it is the word of God. It contradicts itself, contradicts modern science, contains things we know are just not true, and it's full of immoralities. I think it is a work of fiction, and actually a rather inconsistent, horrible book at that.

Although I admit it does have some very good ideas on morality which can basically be summed up by the golden rule. Jesus was an awesome dude, although he did introduce the concept of hell and he said to abandon your family, job, life, etc., and just follow him. So I don't agree with everything he did or said. Although I don't actually think he was the son of God or did most of the things that the Bible says he did. I do think he existed, but whether he was/is the son of God is highly debatable.
 
#383
#383
To glichtenwalter's posts:
I understand all of that. The thing is can you prove any of that? You keep coming back to faith. I agree with you that it takes faith. What is faith? It is believing something without evidence. I know most of what the Bible/Christianity claims, there just isn't enough evidence to convince me that those claims are actually true. I disagree with your claim that God didn't design anyone to be a particular religion because if you had been born in Saudi Arabia, you'd most certainly be a Muslim, if you were born in Ancient Greek, you'd probably believe in Zeus, if you'd been born in Scandinavia in the times of the Vikings, you'd most likely be following Odin and Thor. We are shaped by our genetics and our environment. I will ask again, does not everything happen according to God's divine plan? And therefore, would he not be ultimately responsible for everything?

To OG's post:
I appreciate the offer (I really truly do), but I will respectfully decline simply because I have studied the scriptures, and still study them from time to time because I'm still not 100% certain (more like 99.9% certain) that the Christian God doesn't exist. I think anyone who is 100% certain either for or against is unreasonable because we simply don't have enough information to prove nor disprove God. Like I said, I was born and raised a Christian, I prayed to God to reveal himself to me, and I truly think the reason I am the way I am today is because I gave a sincere attempt at being a Christian. In my late teens, after not having God reveal himself to me, I started to wonder if what I was believing in was actually true. I found no evidence to convince me that it was, quite the opposite in fact. The more I study and research religion, science, and the world/universe, and the older I get, the more convinced I become that all of the theistic gods of Earth were all made up by mankind.

I really do appreciate both of your thoughtful responses and your prayers (even if I don't think they actually do anything). I at least appreciate the gesture.
 
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#384
#384
This post is for any how cares to answer, but what about the people who died before Jesus death/resurrection? All the people who weren't Jews. Did they all go to hell just because they weren't the right nationality?
 
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#385
#385
Burger said:
So if a devoted Christian does a massacre, he gets a spot in heaven?
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so change massacre to lie does that change no all sin is rebellion of God ( God created a world made for flesh & blood thus all life is the breath of God next world / heaven is made for the spirit of God thus you must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of God ) why because that same spirit that raised Jesus from the grave will quicken your mortal body the second the breath leaves your body and you shall be changed to a spirit body like Jesus fit for heaven without the spirit you meaning soul & spirit are trapped in this body and headed to the grave or hell different from the lake of fire that comes at the great throne of judgement after the thousand year rule of Jesus on Earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem lot more to say but i'll stop here
 
#386
#386
mommasvol said:
so change massacre to lie does that change no all sin is rebellion of God ( God created a world made for flesh & blood thus all life is the breath of God next world / heaven is made for the spirit of God thus you must be born again or you cannot see the kingdom of God ) why because that same spirit that raised Jesus from the grave will quicken your mortal body the second the breath leaves your body and you shall be changed to a spirit body like Jesus fit for heaven without the spirit you meaning soul & spirit are trapped in this body and headed to the grave or hell different from the lake of fire that comes at the great throne of judgement after the thousand year rule of Jesus on Earth from the throne of David in Jerusalem lot more to say but i'll stop here
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If I could read your post I might be able to get the point you're trying to make. But. I. Just. Can't. See those little dots at the end of my sentences? Those are called punctuation marks, you should learn how to use them.

They also come I the question mark ? and exclamation point ! But I don't want to overwhelm you right off the bat.
 
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#387
#387
volfan_89 said:
If I could read your post I might be able to get the point you're trying to make. But. I. Just. Can't. See those little dots at the end of my sentences? Those are called punctuation marks, you should learn how to use them.

They also come I the question mark ? and exclamation point ! But I don't want to overwhelm you right off the bat v
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I just told you what life was both in earth and heaven,and you want to be a silly person
 
#389
#389
glichtenwalter said:
I've stated in another post that it requires faith on our part. I cannot see the wind but I see how the wind affects me and the world around me. Just as I can see God's affect on me and the world around me. God did not design anyone to be a particular religion or non-religion. He knows each of us intimately but will not force our belief or worship. Forced worship does not glorify Him. He gives us free will to choose Him or not. However, fair or unfair we find His rules those are the rules. I look at it like this. When I was a child I did not understand everything that my parents did or why. I did not have the cognitive skills to understand it. No matter how old we get we are still Gid's children and it is impossible for us to comprehend him. His is and ever will be beyond us. Trying to put a cause and a reason to everything is impossible. The rules are designed to guide us on a life like you described yours to be. We will fall short. We will sin. That is why He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him. That is why He came to Earth in human form, lived a blameless sinless life, and was sacrificed on the cross. It is through faith and belief in that sacrifice that we can be washed clean of our sins and be reconciled to God. Every sin is sin and God is the opposite of sin. We cannot be in God's presence without or sins being cleansed. I hope that everyone is able to find God and come to know and have faith in him. EVERYONE.
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Even as a Christian, the points he posited are tough to answer/argue. I struggle with the same topics sometimes. What happens to some indigenous tribe in the Amazon who will never hear the Word? Are they welcomed in due to ignorance? So much of our religious beliefs as humans is a direct result of geography, whether we want to acknowledge it or not. A Lebanese gentleman that worked with my dad, once said to him and a coworker, "if you were born in Lebanon then you'd be a Muslim too, just as I would be a Southern Baptist if I was born in the MS Delta like you." Granted, he was an American educated PhD and has had ample opportunity to hear other sides and convert but that's not always true of others.

I don't know Scripture as well as a professing Christian should so maybe that scenario is alluded to somewhere in there. But it begs the question why would God create us and then place us in places around the globe where the chances of learning about him are finite and rare, only to let them in due to ignorance or punish them due to ignorance, where ignorance is not an excuse. Yet geography dictates that it is an excuse. There are likely billions throughout history and going forward that will literally have no knowledge of the Judeo-Christian God. Why would God choose to implement such a scenario?

I think for many of us (definitely myself included) those are scenarios we don't think about and take for granted our position in the world. We recognize there's a need for others to hear, hence we have missionaries. But all the missionaries of all time could never reach people, the world over. Because of where we were born as Christians and the resources afforded to us, it's hard for us to even fathom ourselves in a situation as isolated and oblivious as so many people find themselves in.
 
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#391
#391
mommasvol said:
you strain at a Nat and swollen a camel. bible says don't cast your pearls before swine
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Hey you used a period. Maybe you're starting to catch on to this whole grammar thing. But the 'swollen a camel' part makes me think otherwise. Baby steps I guess.
 
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#392
#392
Some very interesting points being made by people here. JD, you've said some things I've never really thought of or heard myself. Thanks. I always like hearing those kind of questions that make me think and re-examine my own thoughts.

One person I am reminded of that relates to the discussion of how judgement from God can be fair/unfair is Jeffrey Dahmer. This is all from my memory so I could be wrong. But anyway, I'm sure some might remember the name from recent history. He was one of the most despicable human beings while committing some of the worst crimes in the country. He murdered younger men and did terrible things to them. At some point after being caught and while in jail, he was taught from the bible. From what I know, he repented of his sins, and changed his outlook on his life. As far as I know, after being killed in prison, he died believing in God and very well might be saved. Only God knows.

The point is, that for Dahmer, he found something in God. He found peace and hope. I think there is a great comfort in knowing that God will never refuse someone who is sincere in their apologies for past transgressions. God views ALL sin as equal. The concept of "which sin is worse" is totally ours, not His. He views the liar and cheat the same as a mass murderer. They have both done wrong, and God reserves judgement in the end for them. But the fact God has provided a way to be found right and just again, that's completely because of His mercy. He doesn't owe us anything. Humans are sinful creatures, and only because of His actions are we able to be saved.

Like I said before JD, I really like your points. Thanks for contributing.
 
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#393
#393
LittleCat said:
Some very interesting points being made by people here. JD, you've said some things I've never really thought of or heard myself. Thanks. I always like hearing those kind of questions that make me think and re-examine my own thoughts.

One person I am reminded of that relates to the discussion of how judgement from God can be fair/unfair is Jeffrey Dahmer. This is all from my memory so I could be wrong. But anyway, I'm sure some might remember the name from recent history. He was one of the most despicable human beings while committing some of the worst crimes in the country. He murdered younger men and did terrible things to them. At some point after being caught and while in jail, he was taught from the bible. From what I know, he repented of his sins, and changed his outlook on his life. As far as I know, after being killed in prison, he died believing in God and very well might be saved. Only God knows.

The point is, that for Dahmer, he found something in God. He found peace and hope. I think there is a great comfort in knowing that God will never refuse someone who is sincere in their apologies for past transgressions. God views ALL sin as equal. The concept of "which sin is worse" is totally ours, not His. He views the liar and cheat the same as a mass murderer. They have both done wrong, and God reserves judgement in the end for them. But the fact God has provided a way to be found right and just again, that's completely because of His mercy. He doesn't owe us anything. Humans are sinful creatures, and only because of His actions are we able to be saved.

Like I said before JD, I really like your points. Thanks for contributing.
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Not that this is at all all I took from your post, but does the bible ever say not to lie? I know it says not to bear a false witness against your neighbor. Just something I've always wondered about.
 
#394
#394
volfan_89 said:
Not that this is at all all I took from your post, but does the bible ever say not to lie? I know it says not to bear a false witness against your neighbor. Just something I've always wondered about.
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Yes. He speaks of it as something He hates. Many verses on types of deceit. And in Revelations it puts liars right there with others sins as those that will be punished.
 
#395
#395
volfan_89 said:
Not that this is at all all I took from your post, but does the bible ever say not to lie? I know it says not to bear a false witness against your neighbor. Just something I've always wondered about.
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Colossians 3:9 says, “Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices.” Lying is listed in 1 Timothy 1:9-11 as something practiced by the lawless. Furthermore, liars will be among those judged in the end (Revelation 21:8). In contrast, God never lies (Titus 1:2). He is the source of truth. “It is impossible for God to lie” (Hebrews 6:18).

Jesus called Himself the way, the truth, and the life (John 14:6), and He expects those who follow Him to be people of truth. The truth is to be expressed in love (Ephesians 4:15), offering hope to those seeking redemption from the lies of the world.
 
#396
#396
LittleCat said:
Yes. He speaks of it as something He hates. Many verses on types of deceit. And in Revelations it puts liars right there with others sins as those that will be punished.
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So God does have some sins that are greater than others?
 
#397
#397
volfan_89 said:
Hey you used a period. Maybe you're starting to catch on to this whole grammar thing. But the 'swollen a camel' part makes me think otherwise. Baby steps I guess.
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Is he watching baseball or drinking cheap beer? I think we all know just how much trouble he's in once he encounters the swollen camel.
 
#399
#399
JDisThereThere said:
Oh yeah, that fiery and brimstone-y ending that yearns for the apocalypse and destruction of the universe? Yep, read it. Thanks for reminding me that what you are alluding to (or what I suspect you are alluding to) in Revelations contradicts all the times that the Bible describes the fires of hell as being eternal. The fact that Revelations says that everyone in hell will basically be no more doesn't change the fact that the Bible previously mentions that hell would be everlasting. Although you could say that Revelations is the end of time, but then the souls in hell would still be tortured until the end of time. So I guess I have to thank god for the fact that I'll have to die a second horrible death after being in hell for a very long time, which at that point would be some kind of twisted, backwards mercy. Yeah, thanks a lot, all-loving, all-forgiving lord. :eek:lol:

You guys have to realize that using the Bible to convince me (or most any other atheist) isn't really going to work that well because I don't think the Bible is a special, magical book. I don't think it is the word of God. It contradicts itself, contradicts modern science, contains things we know are just not true, and it's full of immoralities. I think it is a work of fiction, and actually a rather inconsistent, horrible book at that.

Although I admit it does have some very good ideas on morality which can basically be summed up by the golden rule. Jesus was an awesome dude, although he did introduce the concept of hell and he said to abandon your family, job, life, etc., and just follow him. So I don't agree with everything he did or said. Although I don't actually think he was the son of God or did most of the things that the Bible says he did. I do think he existed, but whether he was/is the son of God is highly debatable.
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And you claim Christians are close minded? Nobody is trying to convince you of anything. We're trying to have a discussion.
 
#400
#400
It has become so rare in America to have a discussion such as this without it devolving into ugliness...I love VolNation.
 
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