Fulmer Debate II

#276
#276
Then if you want to go 2001-08, LSU went 4, UT 3, UGA 3, Florida 2, Bama 1. So, to say he wasn't competitive his last 8 years is wrong, too.
 
#277
#277
whobethis16 said:
SEC Championship appearances from
1997-08.

Alabama: 2
Arkansas: 2
Auburn: 3
Florida: 4
Georgia: 3
Kentucky: 0
LSU: 4
Ole Miss: 0
Mississippi State: 1
South Carolina: 0
Tennessee: 5
Vanderbilt: 0

That looks like being competitive in the SEC to me. I don't see how you can say it isn't competitive.
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Using the truth in these threads has little to no effect.
 
#278
#278
whobethis16 said:
And then we go back to Fulmer's competing/playing for the SEC championship every 3 years while every other team (yes, Bama, Florida, and Georgia) all went 6+ years without even playing for it. So, for 10 years, nobody went more consistently than Fulmer and his Vols. Even Richt went 6 years without going to Atlanta. I don't get how anyone can say that Fulmer stopped being competitive in the SEC.
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Mark Richt went 6 years without going to Atlanta. You neglect to mention that in 2007 they finished the season #2 in the AP after drubbing Hawaii in a BCS bowl (Sugar). By any measure, that's still a great season.

He also came within a whisker of being fired after the 2010 season, so it's not like he escaped being on the hot seat. Richt's bugaboo to this day is that he can't beat Florida, and losses to teams like South Carolina, Colorado, and UCF in a bowl game almost got him fired after the 2010 season. It forced him to make changes to his coaching staff, a la Fulmer in 2005.

Alabama ran through coaches like nobody's business before hiring Saban, and it was precisely because they weren't competitive with anyone that mattered. So that actually proves my point.

Your comment about Florida also reinforces my point. Ron Zook was fired after 3 winning seasons because they weren't competitive with teams that mattered. Meyer showed up and won 3 SEC East titles, 2 SEC titles and 2 National Titles in 6 years, so I'm not sure what your point is.

You're absolutely right - those other teams you mentioned also have gone several years without SEC Championship Game appearances, and it results in coaches either getting fired or almost fired.
 
#280
#280
Boston Vol said:
How about winning the SEC. When was he planning on doing that?
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As I've said multiple times, not winning one in 10 years sucks as a fan. But saying he's not been competitive is wrong. But, also, fewer than half the teams in the conference have a win there.
 
#281
#281
MedicT said:
Not really.

1. National Championship (Undefeated Season)
2. SEC Championship
3. College Football Hall of Fame

I don't see a whole lot of subtlety that would lend any uncertainty. Two losing seasons out of what, 16? Not much there either.

The record since his departure is also fairly clear. IMHO

The facts are clear. Conjecture comes into play when you try to justify his firing.:salute:
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Lloyd Carr is in the Hall of Fame. He has a national championship, and multiple big ten titles. He was pretty much told to gtfo by the boosters and the higher ups at the school. Were they wrong.?
 
#282
#282
Boston Vol said:
Lloyd Carr is in the Hall of Fame. He has a national championship, and multiple big ten titles. He was pretty much told to gtfo by the boosters and the higher ups at the school. Were they wrong.?
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They got an outback bowl appearance. We got a peach bowl.
 
#283
#283
whobethis16 said:
SEC Championship appearances from
1997-08.

Alabama: 2
Arkansas: 2
Auburn: 3
Florida: 4
Georgia: 3
Kentucky: 0
LSU: 4
Ole Miss: 0
Mississippi State: 1
South Carolina: 0
Tennessee: 5
Vanderbilt: 0

That looks like being competitive in the SEC to me. I don't see how you can say it isn't competitive.
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You have to break up those appearances by coach. The perception was that Meyer, Richt, Saban, Miles, et al were superior to Fulmer. Fulmer does have 5 SEC Championship Game appearances by virtue of him being there for much longer than the coaches I just mentioned. Just showing a total number of SEC Championship Game appearances from 1997 to 2008 is misleading. Saban, for example, has 5 SEC Title Game appearances in 11 seasons (between LSU and Alabama).

You have to consider how Fulmer was perceived relative to those other guys at the time of his firing. That's the reason Tommy Tuberville was fired. He finished first or tied for first in the SEC West 5 times in 10 years. Only 2 SEC Championship Games though, and only 1 victory.
 
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#284
#284
govols/cc said:
They got an outback bowl appearance. We got a peach bowl.
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Yes and two years ago they got a Sugar bowl appearance. Why? because they hired the right guy the second time around. Not that hard to figure out, hire people who can coach and the results will follow.
 
#285
#285
Which was the biggest outlaw, Fulmer or Switzer? I know they both turned their school into OutlawU and there is the Fulmer Cup that is 'awarded' to the school with the most troubled program. Could you really say one or the other was the worst or brought more shame to their university over the other?
 
#287
#287
LookinUp said:
Which was the biggest outlaw, Fulmer or Switzer? I know they both turned their school into OutlawU and there is the Fulmer Cup that is 'awarded' to the school with the most troubled program. Could you really say one or the other was the worst or brought more shame to their university over the other?
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What?
 
#289
#289
05_never_again said:
You have to break up those appearances by coach. The perception was that Meyer, Richt, Saban, Miles, et al were superior to Fulmer. Fulmer does have 5 SEC Championship Game appearances by virtue of him being there for much longer than the coaches I just mentioned. Just showing a total number of SEC Championship Game appearances from 1997 to 2008 is misleading. Saban, for example, has 5 SEC Title Game appearances in 11 seasons (between LSU and Alabama).

You have to consider how Fulmer was perceived relative to those other guys at the time of his firing. That's the reason Tommy Tuberville was fired. He finished first or tied for first in the SEC West 5 times in 10 years. Only 2 SEC Championship Games though, and only 1 victory.
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Tuberville was most definitely NOT fired. He caught boosters tampering with his job and tripped his "Screw you guys. I'm going home" payout.
 
#291
#291
05_never_again said:
Mark Richt went 6 years without going to Atlanta. You neglect to mention that in 2007 they finished the season #2 in the AP after drubbing Hawaii in a BCS bowl (Sugar). By any measure, that's still a great season.

He also came within a whisker of being fired after the 2010 season, so it's not like he escaped being on the hot seat. Richt's bugaboo to this day is that he can't beat Florida, and losses to teams like South Carolina, Colorado, and UCF in a bowl game almost got him fired after the 2010 season. It forced him to make changes to his coaching staff, a la Fulmer in 2005.

Alabama ran through coaches like nobody's business before hiring Saban, and it was precisely because they weren't competitive with anyone that mattered. So that actually proves my point.

Your comment about Florida also reinforces my point. Ron Zook was fired after 3 winning seasons because they weren't competitive with teams that mattered. Meyer showed up and won 3 SEC East titles, 2 SEC titles and 2 National Titles in 6 years, so I'm not sure what your point is.

You're absolutely right - those other teams you mentioned also have gone several years without SEC Championship Game appearances, and it results in coaches either getting fired or almost fired.
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Not completely true, since Franchione left on his own, not fired.

And Meyer also had an 8 win season after winning the BCS that many on here claim was terrible of Fulmer.

The whole point is that despite what so many say on here, Fulmer was most consistent in the conference even when things "were trending down".

And I'm not an advocate of UGA going to that Sugar Bowl because they didn't play for their conference championship, in turn not being the second best team in the conference. But that's a different argument.
 
#292
#292
GAVol said:
Tuberville was most definitely NOT fired. He caught boosters tampering with his job and tripped his "Screw you guys. I'm going home" payout.
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Are boosters tampering with his job if he's perceived by them to be better than Miles and Saban?
 
#294
#294
whobethis16 said:
Not completely true, since Franchione left on his own, not fired.

And Meyer also had an 8 win season after winning the BCS that many on here claim was terrible of Fulmer.

The whole point is that despite what so many say on here, Fulmer was most consistent in the conference even when things "were trending down".

And I'm not an advocate of UGA going to that Sugar Bowl because they didn't play for their conference championship, in turn not being the second best team in the conference. But that's a different argument.
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If Fulmer had won the BCS title in '01 and followed it up with an eight win season I don't think people would be as critical of him for the 2002 debacle.
 
#295
#295
whobethis16 said:
Not completely true, since Franchione left on his own, not fired.

And Meyer also had an 8 win season after winning the BCS that many on here claim was terrible of Fulmer.

The whole point is that despite what so many say on here, Fulmer was most consistent in the conference even when things "were trending down".

And I'm not an advocate of UGA going to that Sugar Bowl because they didn't play for their conference championship, in turn not being the second best team in the conference. But that's a different argument.
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Point taken on Franchione. Meyer won 8 games in his final season, which was universally seen as a disappointment at the time, but that season came on the heels of 2 National Titles and a Sugar Bowl victory in 4 years. Fulmer never had a run that good in such a short period of time to fall back on, and Meyer left on his own anyway after that.
 
#298
#298
Boston Vol said:
If Fulmer had won the BCS title in '01 and followed it up with an eight win season I don't think people would be as critical of him for the 2002 debacle.
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I agree with that. However, to say that Fulmer drove this program into the ground is ridiculous. If you look at each decade all the back to Neyland, the 90s were the greatest and the 00s are exactly on par with almost every other decade. I don't get where people think that we've always had this superior program. We've had a good program with some superior years. And it is because of this man and the man whose name is on the stadium that make so many have this entitled attitude that is not warranted. If it wasn't for him, you would have nothing to complain about for going 8-4.
 
#300
#300
whobethis16 said:
I agree with that. However, to say that Fulmer drove this program into the ground is ridiculous. If you look at each decade all the back to Neyland, the 90s were the greatest and the 00s are exactly on par with almost every other decade. I don't get where people think that we've always had this superior program. We've had a good program with some superior years. And it is because of this man and the man whose name is on the stadium that make so many have this entitled attitude that is not warranted. If it wasn't for him, you would have nothing to complain about for going 8-4.
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I understand but if I'm not mistaken Tennessee has won more games than any other program since like 1928. So I disagree that is's only been a good program with some superior years.
 
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