Fulmer Debate II

#377
#377
TheDeeble said:
Not saying it would happen. Just that things might have turned out differently had we hired a different coach.

I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand that.
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I'm being realistic....you are not. Wishful thinking doesn't change the hand we were dealt or what we had to work with.
 
#378
#378
govols/cc said:
So your 4 year old wouldn't be able to see nobody wanted the job after Fulmer was gone not to mention we was cash strapped with a huge buyout but your 8 year old would. It's a shame a grown man can't see that. All they wanted to see is Fulmer wasn't winning like they wanted but getting rid of him & replacing with whoever would bring automatic success.
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My four-year-old doesn't really understand cause and effect yet. You don't either.
 
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#384
#384
VolsSportsFan said:
The effect didn't happen directly from the firing. You're leaving out a ton of detail that contributed.
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No. People that wanted him gone refuse to accept those choices were the direct result of him being fired. It's not like there was a championship coach knocking on the door or showing interest nor did we have money to pay for one if they had been. All we had was enough to get a nobody & hope. This should've been seen well before Fulmer was let go.
 
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#385
#385
JMSqb11 said:
His firing is directly tied what has resulted over the past 5 years.
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Only in the sense that a replacement had to be found and a series of events landed us where we are today. Ignoring the trajectory under Fulmer and assuming we'd be a contender right now is pie in the sky.
 
#386
#386
govols/cc said:
Cause: Fulmer fired

Effect: we are abysmal & worse than ever
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That's about what my little girl is capable of too. A: the UPS truck was parked in front of the house. B: I fell down and skinned my knee. Conclusion: the UPS truck made me fall down and hurt myself.

The decision to fire Fulmer was independent of the decision of whom to hire to replace him. Brian Kelly apparently interviewed the first time. Kevin Sumlin was interested the second time. Things might have been very different.
 
#387
#387
GAVol said:
Only in the sense that a replacement had to be found and a series of events landed us where we are today. Ignoring the trajectory under Fulmer and assuming we'd be a contender right now is pie in the sky.
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Can't ignore he was a proven winner either. It's safe to say we couldn't be doing much worse than we are now.
 
#388
#388
GAVol said:
Only in the sense that a replacement had to be found and a series of events landed us where we are today. Ignoring the trajectory under Fulmer and assuming we'd be a contender right now is pie in the sky.
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Since you are talking about trajectory, look at his years of having a bad season (Only twice) and then the rebound. The one thing that could have prevented the coaching mess we are in and have endured is directly the effect of firing him. Plain and simple.

So if I can't say with Phil we would be contending, you can't say we would be just as bad with Phil, had he not been fired. You can't argue that point.
 
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#389
#389
Vercingetorix said:
That's about what my little girl is capable of too. A: the UPS truck was parked in front of the house. B: I fell down and skinned my knee. Conclusion: the UPS truck made me fall down and hurt myself.

The decision to fire Fulmer was independent of the decision of whom to hire to replace him. Brian Kelly apparently interviewed the first time. Kevin Sumlin was interested the second time. Things might have been very different.
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It's like watching a sociological experiment. We saw it with Fulmer. We saw it with Pearl. For some people, once they experience success with a leader, they become convinced that no one else can ever do it as well.
 
#390
#390
GAVol said:
Only in the sense that a replacement had to be found and a series of events landed us where we are today. Ignoring the trajectory under Fulmer and assuming we'd be a contender right now is pie in the sky.
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When a coach has two losing seasons in four years and lets it be known that he's planning to hang around four or five more years so he can break an all-time wins record, he's digging his own grave.
 
#391
#391
JMSqb11 said:
Since you are talking about trajectory, look at his years of having a bad season (Only twice) and then the rebound. The one thing that could have prevented the coaching mess we are in and have endured is directly the effect of firing him. Plain and simple.

So if I can't say with Phil we would be contending, you can't say we would be just as bad with Phil, had he not been fired. You can't argue that point.
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Sure it's in part due to firing him. But you're leaving out an awful lot of other details.
 
#392
#392
GAVol said:
It's like watching a sociological experiment. We saw it with Fulmer. We saw it with Pearl. For some people, once they experience success with a leader, they become convinced that no one else can ever do it as well.
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No. You don't give up on a proven winner because you aren't guaranteed to find another.
 
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#393
#393
JMSqb11 said:
His firing is directly tied what has resulted over the past 5 years.
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Tied to yes, direct result no. There is a huge difference.

What I'm saying is they made a decision, followed by several very bad decisions that made it worse. Think of it as parallel universe if you want, say in another universe instead of Kiffin we hired Brian Kelly. We'd more than likely be better off. Heck if after Kiffin bolted we didn't hire Dooley and settle on an interim coach, we may be better off now.

We followed a debatable bad decision followed by at least 2 more bad decisions.
 
#397
#397
govols/cc said:
Can't ignore he was a proven winner either. It's safe to say we couldn't be doing much worse than we are now.
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I don't think we'd be much worse, but you're judging in hindsight.

People are saying it would have been better if we had kept Fulmer are judging that based on what we know right now; that Kiffin and Dooley were disasters.

If we had kept Fulmer, we wouldn't have as low expectations as we have now, so if by this year we hadn't been back to the SEC Championship, beaten Florida, beaten Alabama, etc. then the calls for his firing would be worse than they were in 2008.

You can choose to believe Fulmer would have turned it around, that's your right and there's no way to tell, but I choose to believe Fulmer would have been forced by now anyway because I still think at best we'd be a little better but still mediocre and that definitely wouldn't have been good enough.
 
#399
#399
VolsSportsFan said:
I don't think we'd be much worse, but you're judging in hindsight.

People are saying it would have been better if we had kept Fulmer are judging that based on what we know right now; that Kiffin and Dooley were disasters.

If we had kept Fulmer, we wouldn't have as low expectations as we have now, so if by this year we hadn't been back to the SEC Championship, beaten Florida, beaten Alabama, etc. then the calls for his firing would be worse than they were in 2008.

You can choose to believe Fulmer would have turned it around, that's your right and there's no way to tell, but I choose to believe Fulmer would have been forced by now anyway because I still think at best we'd be a little better but still mediocre and that definitely wouldn't have been good enough.
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All I think is there should've been a better plan in place. Give him 2 years with a successor lined up or something.
 
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