Fulmer Debate II

#702
#702
knoxvols11 said:
Uh yeah.. But I'm sure everbody was up for those games. Hence the sell out crowds just as with GA, Fla, Bama etc..
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Not questioning whether the Vols were up for those Vandy games. They almost certainly were not.

What I am questioning is that it was deliberate and no one was worried. I remember a couple of those games, and believe me, Peyton and Fulmer were both crapping their pants on the sidelines, from the look on their respective faces.

Suggesting that Tennessee DELIBERATELY only won by a TD is ... perhaps .... just a tad silly.
 
#703
#703
GAVol said:
Nobody ever points that out, but it's a very good point. 2005 and 2008 were about as egregious as it gets as far as coaching disasters go.

The problem is, you can't say that without people going nuts and saying you're bashing a legend. The fact is, it's just hard to be in a leadership position for that long and keep everyone, including yourself, motivated.
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No.

The problem with both years was epic QB meltdowns from QBs who would make NFL rosters.

2005 was just a perfect storm of bad luck. Our all-SEC freshman completely folded coming back from injury (I still maintain the last play of the first half against Notre Dame was the ultimate "Butterfly Effect" for the Vols); we just got a lot of bad breaks. The QB problem completely wasted the best defense we had since 1998.

2008 was all on Hambone. We would have been 7 - 6 at the end of it, except Hambone had to fire Fulmer mid-season so he could execute his "master plan" (i.e. hiring Lane Kiffin's Dad). Not stellar by any means, but Crompton, as Kiffin and Chaney proved, needed time and continuity. Keep the coaching staff, and Crompdaddy has a brilliant 13-game senior year a la Hardesty.
 
#704
#704
Eddie Vol Halen said:
No.

The problem with both years was epic QB meltdowns from QBs who would make NFL rosters.

2005 was just a perfect storm of bad luck. Our all-SEC freshman completely folded coming back from injury (I still maintain the last play of the first half against Notre Dame was the ultimate "Butterfly Effect" for the Vols); we just got a lot of bad breaks. The QB problem completely wasted the best defense we had since 1998.

2008 was all on Hambone. We would have been 7 - 6 at the end of it, except Hambone had to fire Fulmer mid-season so he could execute his "master plan" (i.e. hiring Lane Kiffin's Dad). Not stellar by any means, but Crompton, as Kiffin and Chaney proved, needed time and continuity. Keep the coaching staff, and Crompdaddy has a brilliant 13-game senior year a la Hardesty.
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I am putting my rubber boots on. It is getting deep in here.
 
#705
#705
Fulmer had 2 losing seasons in his last 4 years. He had no one to blame, but himself.

Fulmer needed to go, but we needed a quality AD to make a quality hire, not Hamiton hiring coaches with losing records and only 3 years of experience or less.

Kiffen: Less than 3 years of experience as OC and head coach combined and a history of questionable behavior.

Dooley: No coordinator experience, 3 years head coach experience, losing record

Raleigh: Slightly over 500 in the Southern Conference with only one good season coming 5 years before we hired him. Absolutely no indication that he would improve in one of the best baseball conferences in the country.

Martin: 3 years of experience, no conference championships, no NCAA bids

Gate 21 and The Tennessee Terrace: Making Neyland Stadium look like the world's largest Wynnsong Theatre and lowering our home field advantage by decreasing our seating capacity, while neglecting our athletic training facilities is Hamilton's only accomplishment. Its gaudy, its useless and it put us in a bad position financially.
 
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#707
#707
Roustabout said:
Fulmer could have requested a scenario like Bowden's and it would have been granted. Bowden was forced to retire, plain and simple.
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Completely false. Fulmer just asked to try to finish out the season, and even that was denied. Fulmer asked to keep it quiet so he could deal with his players before it was leaked to the press, and even that was denied. No one was pushing Hamilton to make the decision when he did, how he did; he just did, to make sure no one could reverse it.
 
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#708
#708
Gramps said:
The problem with that argument is those two 6 or more loss years came during Fulmers last 4 years. Add those two losing season to not being able to win against the elite teams the last few years does show the program was no longer near the elite level was at during the 1990's - 2001. IMO The 2001 team was the most talented team I have ever saw at TN.We may not have been worse but we be the elite program we were during the 1990's - 2001?
I say no.
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I am not arguing we were elite, nor am I arguing we would have been elite with Fulmer. In the latter half of Fulmer's career, in the most competitive environment in Tennessee football history, we remained good and competitive most of the time, a team of national relevance (ranked at least 1 week every single season in Fulmer's tenure), capable of upsets at any time (even the "horrid" 2005 season featured a great upset over LSU in Baton Rouge), and a program consistent with the history and familial feel of Tennessee. There was no compelling reason to throw the best modern coach in our history, a true son of the program, overboard, for no reason except Fulmer's own unique successes in the first half of his tenure.
 
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#709
#709
I was at a banquet the other day in Johnson City and heard Fulmer speak on helping build the football team at ETSU. He went on to mention that he knows how to win. He then went to say he was 11-5 against Bama. Just sayin... How many people can say that. Given they are not the same team as back then, but still.
 
#710
#710
utvolpj said:
some scores against Vandy with Manning behind center and a roster of NFL players

1995: 12-7
1996: 14-7
1997: 17-10

while UT fans may have felt it was a sure thing the scores don't say the same. Struggling with Vandy is nothing new
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That was because Widenhofer, a great defensive coach, had 5 of his back-7 on those rosters make NFL rosters. That Vandy team in that time period was a top-20 team in pass defensive talent with a coach whose best strength was his defensive coaching.
 
#711
#711
VegasVol said:
Completely false. Fulmer just asked to try to finish out the season, and even that was denied. Fulmer asked to keep it quiet so he could deal with his players before it was leaked to the press, and even that was denied. No one was pushing Hamilton to make the decision when he did, how he did; he just did, to make sure no one could reverse it.
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Exactly.

Hamilton played that hand because he would have looked ridiculous firing Fulmer at 7 - 6 and brought out the pitchforks and burning mattresses. His hope was that it would derail the team, and they would have another loss preventing a bowl game, and he got it a week earlier than expected.

Hambone made a fool of himself at the press conference, and then, not to be outdone by his first performance, for his encore he promptly proceeded to hire a septuagenarian defensive coordinator who brought his son with him to replace the HoF coach, the 2nd best Tennessee has ever had.
 
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#712
#712
I just have one question for those who blame/hate Fulmer. Does anybody think we would be any worse off if Fulmer was never fired? If he would have been kept until we got Butch, how could we be any worse? Keep in mind that Kiffin won with Fulmers players.
 
#713
#713
VegasVol said:
That was because Widenhofer, a great defensive coach, had 5 of his back-7 on those rosters make NFL rosters. That Vandy team in that time period was a top-20 team in pass defensive talent with a coach whose best strength was his defensive coaching.
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I understand what you're saying but in 1998 and 2001 we blanked Widenhofers teams.
 
#714
#714
vol_in_ar said:
I thought Hamilton, was working for a non profit agency?
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There's no such thing as a "non profit" in reality, but yes, he is. Fulmer is involved in a "for profit" venture. Both are in roles of accepting other people's money. Some things never change.
 
#716
#716
BigOrangeTrain said:
I just have one question for those who blame/hate Fulmer. Does anybody think we would be any worse off if Fulmer was never fired? If he would have been kept until we got Butch, how could we be any worse? Keep in mind that Kiffin won with Fulmers players.
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I think if Fulmer had stayed through 2012 we would still be a 5-7 win per year team which should be unacceptable to every Vol fan.
 
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#717
#717
Gramps said:
I think if Fulmer had stayed through 2012 we would still be a 5-7 win per year team which should be unacceptable to every Vol fan.
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Maybe but no attrition, no recruiting violations and I don't think Fulmer would have just left us hanging with uncoached players.
 
#719
#719
BigOrangeTrain said:
Maybe but no attrition, no recruiting violations and I don't think Fulmer would have just left us hanging with uncoached players.
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Jonathan Crompton would disagree. It appeared Fulmer had basically given up on him in 2008. He had some bad games but Kiffin worked with him, stuck with him and he was was drafted by San Diego and now playing in the CFL.

Do you think he would have had a shot in pro ball standing on the sidelines with Fulmer?
 
#720
#720
VegasVol said:
That was because Widenhofer, a great defensive coach, had 5 of his back-7 on those rosters make NFL rosters. That Vandy team in that time period was a top-20 team in pass defensive talent with a coach whose best strength was his defensive coaching.
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Scoring against Vandy's D:

1995: USCjr-52, UF-38, ND-41, Ark-35 (out of 11 games only 1 team, La Tech, scored fewer)
1996: bama-36, LSU-35, SCjr-27, Kentucky-25 (out of 11 games only 1 team scored fewer and 1 scored the same)
1997: SCjr-35, UGA-34 (out of 11 games only 3 teams scored fewer)

so if you're going to make a statement about the great D UT faced then what happened in the rest of Vandy's games? Or maybe you're also making the claim that UT's offense from 95-97 was on par with teams like TCU, UK, N Texas and UAB
 
#721
#721
Vol4life25 said:
Big boy also won a NT....
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Majors teams played 6 SEC games per year, 3 of which were Vandy, Kentucky and Ole Miss (3 of the 4 infamous Have Nots that Joe Dean spoke of). One SEC title was due to Florida being ineligible because of probation. Bama was up and we didn't play Florida but once every 5 years. Majors has losing records against Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia and Mississippi State.

Fulmers teams played in the expanded SEC with 7 SEC games and traded Ole Miss and Auburn for Georgia and Florida every year. Bama is down but Florida isn't. Fulmer has a losing record against Florida and Auburn.
 
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#723
#723
ksgovols said:
Majors teams played 6 SEC games per year, 3 of which were Vandy, Kentucky and Ole Miss (3 of the 4 infamous Have Nots that Joe Dean spoke of). One SEC title was due to Florida being ineligible because of probation. Bama was up and we didn't play Florida but once every 5 years. Majors has losing records against Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Georgia and Mississippi State.

Fulmers teams played in the expanded SEC with 7 SEC games and traded Ole Miss and Auburn for Georgia and Florida every year. Bama is down but Florida isn't. Fulmer has a losing record against Florida and Auburn.
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There definitely were several times when Majors got bailed out by the schedule in November with the Ole Miss/Ky/Vandy finish to salvage a bad year. Even as a kid, I knew that Majors' "win in November" reputation was a little bit of a joke.
 
#724
#724
utvolpj said:
Scoring against Vandy's D:

1995: USCjr-52, UF-38, ND-41, Ark-35 (out of 11 games only 1 team, La Tech, scored fewer)
1996: bama-36, LSU-35, SCjr-27, Kentucky-25 (out of 11 games only 1 team scored fewer and 1 scored the same)
1997: SCjr-35, UGA-34 (out of 11 games only 3 teams scored fewer)

so if you're going to make a statement about the great D UT faced then what happened in the rest of Vandy's games? Or maybe you're also making the claim that UT's offense from 95-97 was on par with teams like TCU, UK, N Texas and UAB
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So.... I guess you are saying Vandy got Super Heros to play for them when they played us? Or our O wasn't as good as the other teams you just mentioned? If I recall, with the exception of Fla we beat those other teams.. You lost this arguement homey so try not make yourself look even worse.. TN just didn't get up for those games! Seems everyone but you knows this.
 
#725
#725
knoxvols11 said:
TN just didn't get up for those games! Seems everyone but you knows this.
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if that were true (it's absurd but we'll play the what if game anyways) then isn't that on the coaches? And since this is the 'Fulmer Debate' thread.....
 
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