Fulmer's Worst 4 years still better than last 4 years

[VFL1953]

Mods, I feel bad for you.

Honestly.

I'd have pulled the plug on VN's hardware for 2 days after a game to avoid dealing with this stuff. It's painful to read... must be worse to try to moderate this fiasco.

I've seen worse. Take a spin through the World of Warcraft, or most any other MMO forum some time. Makes you wonder why the good Lord has not initiated another flood.

 

[GAVol]

I've seen worse. Take a spin through the World of Warcraft, or most any other MMO forum some time. Makes you wonder why the good Lord has not initiated another flood.

I'd settle for a divine power surge frying some routers.

 

[GAVol]

I love awful threads that close in on 100 responses.

You might want to check out our Endzone forum.

 

[VegasVol]

So Tennessee isn't 8th in D-1A/FBS history in all time wins (801)? Or 3rd all time in bowl appearances (49)? UT doesn't have multiple consensus national championships and 13 SEC championships (2nd in SEC history)?

Is college football still only a white player's game? Is the SEC still segregated? Because here's the post-SEC-integration/pre-Fulmer as OC or coach (1973-1988) history at Tennessee:

Wins: 110 wins in 16 seasons (6.9 per year) (ranked 31st in the country in that time period)

Bowl Appearances: 9 in 16 seasons

National Titles: 0 in 16 seasons

Top-15 Finishes: 2 in 16 seasons

Unranked All Season: 8 in 16 seasons

SEC Sole #1 Finishes: 0 in 16 seasons (Florida's probation gave us the 1985 title; they beat us on the field that year)

SEC Top-3 Finishes: 2 in 16 seasons

The problem is that fans keep believing Fulmer's 90's run "should" be the "norm" when in fact both his 90's run and his 00's performance was way above the norm for an integrated SEC with top-caliber coaches and/or recruiter at most of the talent-rich programs across the country.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Because your assumption is wrong -- Tennessee is not "on par" with the talent-rich programs. The only program comparable to Tennessee in that list is Nebraska, and they were a weaker team from 2002-2008 than Tennessee was during that era, by most objective observations. But for their playing a weaker schedule, Nebraska would have run a similar risk of losing seasons as Tennessee.

One last note: Fulmer was fired before he had a losing season in 2008 just so he couldn't go on a winning streak to close the season and deter Hamilton's goals of hiring the "great" Lane Kiffin.

Both paragraphs are great points.

Hambone fired Fulmer midseason because he hoped to derail a bowl bid and / or the deed would be done if we go 7 - 6.

I just want to follow this through though: we have a very mediocre 2008 at 6 - 6 with QB play as bad as 2013 if folk remember correctly. Clawson gets the extra month of practice to finally get everybody on board with the new scheme. Crompton gets the extra practice he needs and the light switch gets thrown at the beginning of 2009 instead of in the middle of that season. Fulmer makes the SECCG again in 2009 and 2012 with Tajh a junior and retires with more wins than the General.

Now, the cupboard has Tajh Boyd as a senior, we have a read option offense, Chief is still here, and the reins are handed over to... BUTCH.

 

[VegasVol]

I think we all can agree that after Fulmer won the NC in 98, he got very lazy and complacent.

No, we can't agree on that. In fact, I know of no informed fan close to the program who believes that, even those who wanted to replace Fulmer as HC. Just read "The Blind Side" where Fulmer pulled out every stop possible to try to land Michael Oher when everyone knew we was unlikely to turn down his adopted family's homeschool and nearby program. Fulmer never got "lazy" or "complacent."

The reason the 00's were not as good as the 90's was 90% about things Fulmer had no control over -- the professionalization of college football due to the massive $ created by the "ESPN-ing" of college football, which makes it highly unlikely any talent-rich program will have a weak coach or recruiter for any extended time period.

 

[VegasVol]

Yes they were

Fulmer had 4 full seasons and coached in 50 games. In those 50, he was 29-21 (58%), 1-1 in bowls, no SEC Championships, no NCs

In Majors' last 50 games, he was 39-9-2(78%), 2-1 in bowls, 2 SEC championships, no NCs

Any illusion about whether Fulmer or Majors was responsible for the only good 4-year time period in Majors' 16 years on the hill was resolved by Majors' true "last four years" at Pitt, where he was atrocious.

 

[SouthKnoxVOL]

No, we can't agree on that. In fact, I know of no informed fan close to the program who believes that, even those who wanted to replace Fulmer as HC. Just read "The Blind Side" where Fulmer pulled out every stop possible to try to land Michael Oher when everyone knew we was unlikely to turn down his adopted family's homeschool and nearby program. Fulmer never got "lazy" or "complacent."

The reason the 00's were not as good as the 90's was 90% about things Fulmer had no control over -- the professionalization of college football due to the massive $ created by the "ESPN-ing" of college football, which makes it highly unlikely any talent-rich program will have a weak coach or recruiter for any extended time period.

So you're saying Fulmer NEVER got lazy or complacent? and then you go on to blame ESPN for the downfall of the program? Man....I guess it's true....ESPN truly hates UT.

 

[tomq_123]

Take his worst 4 years of wins and losses the entire time he coached here still tops UT's last 4 years. wins 6.5 losses 5.5

Last 4 years before Jones
W-5.75- L-6.75

That's like saying a dog turd is better than a cat turd.

 

[Sandvol]

The problem is if Fulmer had stayed coach and even had a better record the fan base still would not have been happy. The newer coaches like Richt, Saban, and Miles were coming into the league and owning Fulmer- UT had no choice but to try to get a younger more ambitious coach. However, so far, the UT administration has done a poor job with finding a successor who can compete with Saban, Miles and Richt. And, Spurrier had always been a better coach than Fulmer too. So UT was being pushed way down on the totem pole anyways. So now we're about 10th down on the totem pole instead of 8th.

P.S.-If it takes 5 more coaches before Tennessee gets their program competing with the Saban's and the Richt's and we have to fire 3 more athletic directors and 3 Chancellors and Presidents then it was still the correct move in getting rid of Fulmer if your goal is to compete with the SEC powerhouses.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

I just want to follow this through though: we have a very mediocre 2008 at 6 - 6 with QB play as bad as 2013 if folk remember correctly. Clawson gets the extra month of practice to finally get everybody on board with the new scheme. Crompton gets the extra practice he needs and the light switch gets thrown at the beginning of 2009 instead of in the middle of that season. Fulmer makes the SECCG again in 2009 and 2012 with Tajh a junior and retires with more wins than the General.

Now, the cupboard has Tajh Boyd as a senior, we have a read option offense, Chief is still here, and the reins are handed over to... BUTCH.

P.S.-If it takes 5 more coaches before Tennessee gets their program competing with the Saban's and the Richt's and we have to fire 3 more athletic directors and 3 Chancellors and Presidents then it was still the correct move in getting rid of Fulmer if your goal is to compete with the SEC powerhouses.

We were competing with the SEC powerhouses. The problem everyone has is that we didn't win the SECCG the three times we got there post 1998.

We lost to the eventual National Champion each time. So, again, did anyone really expect Lane Kiffin to beat Saban, Tebow, et al? Because that's what a lot of people wanted, and that's what they got.

 

[friedeggsammich]

You obviously took the time to open it and then to post a response....

What are you - his lawyer?

 

[friedeggsammich]

We were competing with the SEC powerhouses. The problem everyone has is that we didn't win the SECCG the three times we got there post 1998.

We lost to the eventual National Champion each time. So, again, did anyone really expect Lane Kiffin to beat Saban, Tebow, et al? Because that's what a lot of people wanted, and that's what they got.

Fulmer couldnt beat florida with a loaded team and without florida having tebow.

 

[114VOL]

No, we can't agree on that. In fact, I know of no informed fan close to the program who believes that, even those who wanted to replace Fulmer as HC. Just read "The Blind Side" where Fulmer pulled out every stop possible to try to land Michael Oher when everyone knew we was unlikely to turn down his adopted family's homeschool and nearby program. Fulmer never got "lazy" or "complacent."

The reason the 00's were not as good as the 90's was 90% about things Fulmer had no control over -- the professionalization of college football due to the massive $ created by the "ESPN-ing" of college football, which makes it highly unlikely any talent-rich program will have a weak coach or recruiter for any extended time period.

So Fulmer shouldn't be blamed for anything in regards to the downward slide of the program?

Fulmer shouldn't be blamed for allowing players to prance around with roses before the SECCG in 2001?

Fulmer bears no blame for the debacle in 2002?

Fulmer bears no blame for going 5-6 in 2005? After he told a national audience, "we have a chance to be really special"...he must not have known ESPN was going to fu** him into having a bad season

Fulmer bears no blame for the sixth ranked Vols getting blown out by an unranked Clemson in the bowl game? Who made Fulmer publicly admonish the bowl selection committee beforehand? Someone must have been holding a gun to his head since it isn't his fault

:birgits_giggle:

That's enough. No need to rub it in on you.

Poor Fulmer. He was the victim of the system and that downward slide, the poor recruiting and not having a QB ready for the 2008 were all the fault of someone else or some other organization.

And all of significant schools that had job openings must have been colluding against him when he couldn't find another head coaching job.

BTW, I don't think he got lazy. I just believe after Cut left, the program got out of control and he wouldn't do the necessary things to instill a hard line with the players. He didn't recruit as well either. For whatever reason, the studs he was signing busted far more often than they prevailed, but heck, it wasn't his fault he didn't screen them hard enough. Must have been someone else's fault in the clearing house office

 

[volfanecs]

So Fulmer shouldn't be blamed for anything in regards to the downward slide of the program?

Fulmer shouldn't be blamed for allowing players to prance around with roses before the SECCG in 2001?

Fulmer bears no blame for the debacle in 2002?

Fulmer bears no blame for going 5-6 in 2005? After he told a national audience, "we have a chance to be really special"...he must not have known ESPN was going to fu** him into having a bad season

Fulmer bears no blame for the sixth ranked Vols getting blown out by an unranked Clemson in the bowl game? Who made Fulmer publicly admonish the bowl selection committee beforehand? Someone must have been holding a gun to his head since it isn't his fault

:birgits_giggle:

That's enough. No need to rub it in on you.

Poor Fulmer. He was the victim of the system and that downward slide, the poor recruiting and not having a QB ready for the 2008 were all the fault of someone else or some other organization.

And all of significant schools that had job openings must have been colluding against him when he couldn't find another head coaching job.

I knew you would finally get it right.

 

[Sandvol]

We were competing with the SEC powerhouses. The problem everyone has is that we didn't win the SECCG the three times we got there post 1998.

We lost to the eventual National Champion each time. So, again, did anyone really expect Lane Kiffin to beat Saban, Tebow, et al? Because that's what a lot of people wanted, and that's what they got.

Not really. We did OK while Claussen was here but after that we started to slide. Kelly Washington came in and called himself "The Future" and Fulmer started losing control of the team. The national championship team had 50% of its starters from Tennessee but after that Fulmer recruited almost entirely out of state and he started losing the state high school coaches and then Saban, Miles and Richt started getting our good players. Fulmer managed the good will he got from the NC very poorly. Then he made a horrible decision when he replaced Sanders as OC. Of course he allowed Sanders to take all the blame first when he meddled constantly.

 

[VegasVol]

So you're saying Fulmer NEVER got lazy or complacent? and then you go on to blame ESPN for the downfall of the program? Man....I guess it's true....ESPN truly hates UT.

Not "blaming" ESPN for anything; bottom line is the talent-rich programs have a built-in edge over us and expecting someone to ever replicate what Fulmer did in the 90's is the kind of unrealistic thinking that gives us the misery of the last four years.

Yeah, Fulmer NEVER got lazy or complacent. His teams continued to perform better over time than Kiffin's or Dooley's, and it is unlikely Butch Jones will exceed or even match him, even if we only measure the latter half of Fulmer's tenure. I doubt we get to the 10-win plateau he hit half the time in in his last 6 years in Knoxville.

 

[JohnnyBall]

Not by much

 

[VegasVol]

Not really. We did OK while Claussen was here but after that we started to slide. Kelly Washington came in and called himself "The Future" and Fulmer started losing control of the team. The national championship team had 50% of its starters from Tennessee but after that Fulmer recruited almost entirely out of state and he started losing the state high school coaches and then Saban, Miles and Richt started getting our good players. Fulmer managed the good will he got from the NC very poorly. Then he made a horrible decision when he replaced Sanders as OC. Of course he allowed Sanders to take all the blame first when he meddled constantly.

First, 2004, 2006 and 2007 were all fun seasons, and all three were after Clausen was gone.

Second, the national title team had about 10 players on the roster with significant time from Tennessee, about a third of the players who say significant time that year, and that includes 3 OL and the kicker. Martin was from Alabama; Bryson was from North Carolina; Henry was from Florida; Lewis was from Georgia; Price was from Ohio; Ellis & Price were from South Carolina; Ratliff was from Mississippi; Thompson was from Louisiana; Goodrich was from Illinois; Grant was from Georgia. Our key talent almost all come from out of state, in locations that would be nigh-impossible to land such highly valued recruits today.

Third, anyone who says Fulmer "meddled" constantly is just making stuff up, because anyone close to the program (including Fulmer critics) will tell you Fulmer didn't call plays at all during that era or at anytime.

 

[VegasVol]

So Fulmer shouldn't be blamed for anything in regards to the downward slide of the program?

If you mean by "downward slide," his record from 2001 to 2008, I think the vast mass of Tennessee fans would take that over the last four+ years since his firing.

 

[VegasVol]

Fulmer couldnt beat florida with a loaded team and without florida having tebow.

When Fulmer had comparable talent to Florida, he was 3-3, winning in 1992, 1998 and 2001, and losing in 1997, 1999 and 2000. Every other time, Florida had more talent than we did.

 

[Freak]

I love awful threads that close in on 100 responses.

Many do. It's like bad car wreck syndrome. People just can't look away.

 

[114VOL]

When Fulmer had comparable talent to Florida, he was 3-3, winning in 1992, 1998 and 2001, and losing in 1997, 1999 and 2000. Every other time, Florida had more talent than we did.

We had more talent than Florida for about ten years, supported by the fact that between 1994-2003, UT had 71 players drafted and Florida had 59 drafted.

Shall I go into the facts about how many more players we had on active NFL rosters between 1985 and 2005?

See, you have no factual evidence that Florida had more talent than us. Just saying so doesn't make it so.

It wouldn't surprise me if you thought that Fulmer was the equal of Spurrier

 

[GAVol]

We had more talent than Florida for about ten years, supported by the fact that between 1994-2003, UT had 71 players drafted and Florida had 59 drafted.

Shall I go into the facts about how many more players we had on active NFL rosters between 1985 and 2005?

We were better until about 92. Florida was better from about 93-96. Then it got roughly even 97-03. Then it got ugly.

 

[114VOL]

We were better until about 92. Florida was better from about 93-96. Then it got roughly even 97-03. Then it got ugly.

Better what?

The question was about talent, which we had more for the better part of 10-12 years.

We had basically the same team in 1993 that we had in 1992 yet Vegas claims we had better talent in 1992 and they had better talent in 1993. Heck, we were 7 point favorites in Gainesville in 1993, but of course, we weren't prepared to play and got our azzes beat like we did for the better part of the 90s