Game Thread: Lady Vols at Miss St; 7PM; SEC network

[creekdipper]

Shows the value of having RJ and JH on the same team. Those two erase a lot of our team deficiencies and that’s where Darth and I have stated we are closer to a mid-major team than we are those we are chasing.

The poster you mention is one of those making the two-faced posts about Horston.

 

[creekdipper]

This is Belmonts worst season in maybe a decade. The last 5 years they were a top 40 team.

I like Belmont, but I'm not delusional enough to believe they would consistently have a reasonable chance of beating top 20 teams on most nights.

 

[creekdipper]

I see none of the usual suspects complaining about Kellie's use of time outs last night.

 

[VolBalls33]

I like Belmont, but I'm not delusional enough to believe they would consistently have a reasonable chance of beating top 20 teams on most nights.

Has anyone stated Belmont would? I certainly didn't. Belmont had a solid run the last 4 or 5 seasons, but were never a top 20 team.

 

[VolBalls33]

I see none of the usual suspects complaining about Kellie's use of time outs last night.

They were likely too disgusted by the plays after Kellie called a time out. I know I was.

 

[Jax_Vol]

I see none of the usual suspects complaining about Kellie's use of time outs last night.

I thought she did well on the timeouts.

MSU had fresh legs, and we are ready for a break. It was amazing that we extended it into the second OT with a one-armed and then fouled out Jordy. The team has a big heart!

 

[Majors]

The poster you mention is one of those making the two-faced posts about Horston.

I didn’t. But he and I agree, take those two out of the equation and we are closer to mid-major than Top 10.

 

[Majors]

Has anyone stated Belmont would? I certainly didn't. Belmont had a solid run the last 4 or 5 seasons, but were never a top 20 team.

I stated we are closer to Belmont than we are UConn, Stanford, SC and LSU.

 

[glv98]

The same posters who disparage and insult her for "erratic" play also tout her as a top draft pick when it suits their narrative of disparaging Kellie and her staff

Both things can be, and are true. Latest draft things I've seen have JH and RJ kind of shuffling around #5-8. And all assessments say Jordy's challenges are outside shooting and consistency. This is not a secret; to her credit JH has owned it many times. No one is more bothered by it than her.

I was kinda thinking JH should come back, esp if TK does. But now I wonder if a complete change of scenary and a fresh start might help Jordan break thru in terms of consistent play. I know she and KJH are bff, and I admire both for how hard they've worked and where JH is. I'm just not sure that last step is ever going to happen here.

I have been frantically opposed to JH ever being moved back to PG again, but wouldn't be surprised if someday she makes a very good WNBA PG. She certainly has all the physical tools.

 

[Darth_Vol]

Shows the value of having RJ and JH on the same team. Those two erase a lot of our team deficiencies and that’s where Darth and I have stated we are closer to a mid-major team than we are those we are chasing.

Hey remember that time Tennessee played Belmont? Jackson obviously wasn't here yet, and Horston was out with an injury. The Lady Vols had to rally and needed a clutch shot from Puckett in the last 20 seconds to escape with their lives... at home. That was a hell of a mid-major contest...

 

[Amb3096]

Both things can be, and are true. Latest draft things I've seen have JH and RJ kind of shuffling around #5-8. And all assessments say Jordy's challenges are outside shooting and consistency. This is not a secret; to her credit JH has owned it many times. No one is more bothered by it than her.

I was kinda thinking JH should come back, esp if TK does. But now I wonder if a complete change of scenary and a fresh start might help Jordan break thru in terms of consistent play. I know she and KJH are bff, and I admire both for how hard they've worked and where JH is. I'm just not sure that last step is ever going to happen here.

I have been frantically opposed to JH ever being moved back to PG again, but wouldn't be surprised if someday she makes a very good WNBA PG. She certainly has all the physical tools.

Her best position in the WNBA is a wing that has some playmaking ability. She is deadly getting to the hoop and shooting over smaller defenders from about 15 feet, but she doesn't have the shooting consistency to play in the backcourt at the next level. 6'2 guards (especially those that can't shoot) are not exactly a thriving prototype in the WNBA, but the <6 ft guard that can shoot from deep, drive and pass is.

I'm not sure what her incentive is to come back next season, unless she really plummets in the WNBA mock drafts. She's pretty much a first round lock. Any development opportunities she might get (at Tennessee or elsewhere) would pale in comparison to what she can develop by being on a WNBA team and overseas stints.

 

[Majors]

Hey remember that time Tennessee played Belmont? Jackson obviously wasn't here yet, and Horston was out with an injury. The Lady Vols had to rally and needed a clutch shot from Puckett in the last 20 seconds to escape with their lives... at home. That was a hell of a mid-major contest...

Hence the statement we are closer to Belmont…shows how far we have to go when those two aren’t around.

 

[creekdipper]

Hence the statement we are closer to Belmont…shows how far we have to go when those two aren’t around.

So making it to the final sixteen teams in the NCAA Tournament makes you "closer to a mid-major than one of the best teams" in college basketball? How about Stanford only beating Kellie's Missouri State team by nine in the Tournament? That put Stanford team "close to a mid-major?"

And where exactly did that put Pat Summitt's team that lost in the first round to Ball State? You gonna call that squad loaded with McD All-Americans "close to a mid-major?"

Selective memory isn't a good look.

 

[LasVegasBill23]

when we hit the big stage in March and the tournament you need yiour stars to step up when we last made the final 4 ... george bush was President we need to do some work before that time

 

[lvocd]

Creekdipper, I seldom disagree with you but I think the "quickness" rationale just does not hold up. When we have Walker, Jackson, Hollingshead on the court, relative to their positions, that is plenty of quicks. Kellie plays Powell and Walker together a lot as well (I don't like that line-up but they should be able to press defensively). When we had Wynn on the court, albeit briefly not much changed. Sure Tess and Karo and Sara are not going to win many sprint battles but teams like Indiana, Ohio State, Iowa, and even Stanford have players in their line-up that are far from being "fast twitch" monsters. They seem to find ways to defend.

The LV's defensive positioning, rotations, court awareness, and anticipation are not very good. Key literally erased a lot of these problems last season. Our defense is as spotty as our offense. They can play well in stretches but can't sustain the intensity and focus over an entire game.

To my eye, the only truly quick players on our team are Rickea, Kaiya, Brooklynn, Powell and Edie Darby.

Second tier in quickness : Walker (who'd be first-tier if her knee had never gone through two acl surgeries/rehabs), Horston, who has great body control but who isn't truly "quick." (Horston lopes in her movements a lot in the way Rennia Davis does, but Jordan is still quicker than Rennia) Jillian and Justine.

Jasmine Franklin is in a category of her own because she's in-between, depending on how her knee is holding up that day.

The least quick third tier is Sara, Tess, Karoline (and Marta, Tamari and Jessie).

If there were a quickness-revealing "hand-slap game" tournament, this is how I'd seed the players. lol

 

[37620VOL]

To my eye, the only truly quick players on our team are Rickea, Kaiya, Brooklynn, Powell and Edie Darby.

Second tier in quickness : Walker (who'd be first-tier if her knee had never gone through two acl surgeries/rehabs), Horston, who has great body control but who isn't truly "quick." (Horston lopes in her movements a lot in the way Rennia Davis does, but Jordan is still quicker than Rennia) Jillian and Justine.

Jasmine Franklin is in a category of her own because she's in-between, depending on how her knee is holding up that day.

The least quick third tier is Sara, Tess, Karoline (and Marta, Tamari and Jessie).

If there were a quickness-revealing "hand-slap game" tournament, this is how I'd seed the players. lol

Our quickest and most capable lockdown defender is Horston. She goes on line 1 by herself.

Second tier: Wynn and Miles are quick enough, but lack rudimentary offensive skills. Walker and Jackson round out this group.

Third tier (average or better quickness): Powell, Jill, Franklin and Edie

Fourth tier (below average quickness): Sara, Tess, Karoline (unfortunately our only good shooters)

 

[BruisedOrange]

I know with male athletes, quickness has become an improvable trait under good strength & conditioning trainers.

Anyone seen statistics on how receptive to this training older teen female athletes have been? So much of typical female body development during this period works against increasing lateral quickness...

 

[madtownvol]

Our quickest and most capable lockdown defender is Horston. She goes on line 1 by herself.

Second tier: Wynn and Miles are quick enough, but lack rudimentary offensive skills. Walker and Jackson round out this group.

Third tier (average or better quickness): Powell, Jill, Franklin and Edie

Fourth tier (below average quickness): Sara, Tess, Karoline (unfortunately our only good shooters)

The difference between yours and LVOCD's post illustrates that "quickness" is an ephemeral concept, with a lot components.

Jordan H. is a unicorn in terms of her speed and quickness for a player her size but a quick guard with a lower center of gravity, like Annie Hayes, can get by her if the angle is right (and Jordan is going to play in the WNBA, Hayes probably not).

Jillian H is a 6'5 player. As post players goes, she is quite quick relative to other posts but again match her up against an athletic 5-8 guard on the perimeter and the odds are not in her favor.

When you look at the top 10, you have #2 Indiana, #5 Iowa, #7 Utah, #11 VA Tech, #13 Ohio State, and #23 Colorado. Tennessee has better athletes across the board. Their starter line-ups are filled with players who physically look a lot like Puckett and Darby and yet they are defending and winning.

A good defensive team works as a unit, anticipates positions and denies passing lanes, forces teams out of their normal modes, has good court awareness so that players don't get lost on screens and cuts, and boxes out. Of course, if you have speed demon matched up one on one with less quick defender, you will get a blow by but good defensive teams make such events a rarity in games rather than a regular occurrence. Kaiya for example, has a rep for being a good defender, With her we are talking about small samples but she gets burned routinely when she is on the court due poor positioning and missed assignments,.

The problems with out offense catch all the attention but our defensive sets are just as bad. The team plays solid defense for about half a game but then they fall into bad habits. I do think some of the disjointedness comes from the continual mixing and matching of players that goes on. Its is a strange world when one minute you have Franklin, Hollinsghead, Jackson, Puckett, Walker on the floor and on the next sub, you have Powell, Walker, Horston, Striplin, and Darby. What is the defensive scheme across those two line-ups?

 

[madtownvol]

Her best position in the WNBA is a wing that has some playmaking ability. She is deadly getting to the hoop and shooting over smaller defenders from about 15 feet, but she doesn't have the shooting consistency to play in the backcourt at the next level. 6'2 guards (especially those that can't shoot) are not exactly a thriving prototype in the WNBA, but the <6 ft guard that can shoot from deep, drive and pass is.

I'm not sure what her incentive is to come back next season, unless she really plummets in the WNBA mock drafts. She's pretty much a first round lock. Any development opportunities she might get (at Tennessee or elsewhere) would pale in comparison to what she can develop by being on a WNBA team and overseas stints.

Agree. Key has more incentive to return because her illness has hurt her draft stock. If Key is back, next years line-up may not be the disaster people are suggesting. Pissott will hopefully have a Rae Burrell freshman to sophomore jump (people forget her playing time was pretty limited at the start for many of the same reasons). You would hope that Darby and Puckett come back improved. Jillian can be a force, finding a better PG to pair with Powell and another scoring threat would be the big needs to fill in the transfer portal.

 

[Orange_Mamba]

Even being a first round lock in the W don’t mean anything. I wonder if seniors seriously think about taking the extra yr. Especially, when you can make money know off endorsements and top 5 picks getting cut left and right. Not that much money going around right now unless your a vet.

 

[Majors]

So making it to the final sixteen teams in the NCAA Tournament makes you "closer to a mid-major than one of the best teams" in college basketball? How about Stanford only beating Kellie's Missouri State team by nine in the Tournament? That put Stanford team "close to a mid-major?"

And exactly where did that put Pat Summitt's team that lost in the first round to Ball State? You gonna call that squad loaded with McD All-Americans "close to a mid-major?"

Selective memory isn't a good look.

Digging into the vault of 2009 to zig zag. Bad loss is how I’d put it, benefit of winning back to back championships gives you freedom to take one. Especially if your roster consist of 7 freshmen. This team isn’t playing 7 freshman, not even playing the one they have or 4 sophomores. That team 12 players and 11 were underclassman. Seems in the selective memory you left out many details….also the infamous year of taking the locker room away. Which I put out there early in the season as a wake up call to the players.

Stanford won by 9, not 3 in the final 30 seconds while trailing most of the 4th.
Again, equity in Championship which Tara and Stanford have.

 

[Amb3096]

Even being a first round lock in the W don’t mean anything. I wonder if seniors seriously think about taking the extra yr. Especially, when you can make money know off endorsements and top 5 picks getting cut left and right. Not that much money going around right now unless your a vet.

Only in really rare situations will a top 5 pick get cut during training camp. There's also the risk of an injury that makes her post-college options less clear. She won't have the benefit that Tamari has of having another year to build her stock back up.

 

[Chippo]

I think watching what happens with the asst. coaches will be telling. As you know, a HC gets a one time shot at blaming asst. coaches for a bad season and replacing them, but if we see asst. coaches leaving on their own after this season, that could be telling that they think the HC's days may be numbered and bailing early.

I'm sure Jon won't be one unless Mr. White
decides to release him.

 

[Rooster1]

The difference between yours and LVOCD's post illustrates that "quickness" is an ephemeral concept, with a lot components.

Jordan H. is a unicorn in terms of her speed and quickness for a player her size but a quick guard with a lower center of gravity, like Annie Hayes, can get by her if the angle is right (and Jordan is going to play in the WNBA, Hayes probably not).

Jillian H is a 6'5 player. As post players goes, she is quite quick relative to other posts but again match her up against an athletic 5-8 guard on the perimeter and the odds are not in her favor.

When you look at the top 10, you have #2 Indiana, #5 Iowa, #7 Utah, #11 VA Tech, #13 Ohio State, and #23 Colorado. Tennessee has better athletes across the board. Their starter line-ups are filled with players who physically look a lot like Puckett and Darby and yet they are defending and winning.

A good defensive team works as a unit, anticipates positions and denies passing lanes, forces teams out of their normal modes, has good court awareness so that players don't get lost on screens and cuts, and boxes out. Of course, if you have speed demon matched up one on one with less quick defender, you will get a blow by but good defensive teams make such events a rarity in games rather than a regular occurrence. Kaiya for example, has a rep for being a good defender, With her we are talking about small samples but she gets burned routinely when she is on the court due poor positioning and missed assignments,.

The problems with out offense catch all the attention but our defensive sets are just as bad. The team plays solid defense for about half a game but then they fall into bad habits. I do think some of the disjointedness comes from the continual mixing and matching of players that goes on. Its is a strange world when one minute you have Franklin, Hollinsghead, Jackson, Puckett, Walker on the floor and on the next sub, you have Powell, Walker, Horston, Striplin, and Darby. What is the defensive scheme across those two line-ups?

Indiana’s players do not look like Puckett or Darby athletically. You obviously don’t know much about that team from an athletic point of view. They are athletic and skilled, no stiffs. Hoosier players are quite similar in athleticism to Uconn players.

 

[madtownvol]

Indiana’s players do not look like Puckett or Darby athletically. You obviously don’t know much about that team from an athletic point of view.

Cockadoodledoodude. Check out this highlight clip. Indiana's players are not exceptionally quick and when they run up and down, several of them move just Puckett and Darby. But they play with a purpose, anticipate well, know their spots on the offensive sets and they have good ball movement , and they know how, who and when to double team and create traps. Their positional movement on their defensive shifts is really good. All things lacking in the LVs game.

UI highlight

If you are in the right position, you don't have to be the quickest player on the court to make a play.

Blaming this team's woes on a just not having "quick" enough players is really missing the point about why this team is under performing.