Game Thread: Lady Vols at Miss St; 7PM; SEC network

[MsSportsGuy]

Mississippi State grad/fan and also long time LVs supporter.......I didn't actually watch but have seen UT play other games this year.
I too was optimistic about Harper's hire and also the team this year. Rickea Jackson and Jordan Horston are terrific players. I'm glad RJ is doing well at UT. I think it was best for both she and MSU to move on and wished her no ill will.

The LVs are slow. They've been slow dating back to Pat's teams and there isn't much coaching that makes a player faster. Footwork and defense can be improved but only to a point. The LVs also struggle with outside shooting. The current crop of players aren't bad but none of them have offered consistent outside shooting that can accomodate when the defense packs in the paint.

This really is the first game where the LVs lost to a significantly less talented and generally less capable team. While Gonzaga and UCLA aren't exactly world beaters there is no shame in losing to UConn, OSU, Indiana, VT, or even LSU in Baton Rouge coached by one of the best in the game. The schedule was too loaded to start the year but what's done is done.

What can be done now is to drop the stubborness about the rotations and playing time. Your starters are Walker, Horston, Darby, Jackson and Hollingshed. Pucket, Powell and Franklin can come in during short bursts for relief. Your defense is zone. This team isn't able to play man to man against almost anyone. Success for this year will now be winning as many as possible, winning at least one game in the SEC tournament, and making it to weekend 2. if possible. Nothing else matters.

Worry about next year when this is over. There is still time to end on a good note.

 

[Amb3096]

I can't blame Kellie for wanting to make a statement to future recruits about the excitement of Lady Vol basketball once again taking up the historic mantle of playing one of the toughest schedules in the sport. I mean, it truly seemed to me that she had made a brilliant move that, when this team rose to the occasion against all these ranked opponents, that the season tickets and NIL memberships would absolutely fly sky high!

It WAS a calculated risk, and I still think it was worth taking if I had been in her position at the time the schedule was being designed. We Lady Vol fans are often critical of other program's scheduling, so I feel like we are partly to blame for Harper feeling like she needed to be willing to step up the scheduling if the critics were going to be checking for improvements in all areas of the program.

The issue isn't that Kellie scheduled a tough schedule; the issue is that she lost every single game against a team with pulse, except for Colorado (who an argument can be made is playing much better now than in November). Losing to some of those teams is understandable; losing to ALL of them just exposed that Tennessee really wasn't that good.

 

[Majors]

Stop quoting facts!!! Stick to the narrative!

What are you? A fan?

You holding out that we are closer to those teams I mentioned, although we don’t have a win against any of them? Quoting facts and all.

 

[lvocd]

The issue isn't that Kellie scheduled a tough schedule; the issue is that she lost every single game against a team with pulse, except for Colorado (who an argument can be made is playing much better now than in November). Losing to some of those teams is understandable; losing to ALL of them just exposed that Tennessee really wasn't that good.

I realize that, but my main point is that noone would have predicted some of the issues that contributed to them getting off to such a bad start. There were legitimate reasons, IMO, that rose above mere "excuses."

I maintain she took a risk, yes, but at the time it didn't seem at all like an outrageous risk. Then sh t happened!

 

[creekdipper]

The issue isn't that Kellie scheduled a tough schedule; the issue is that she lost every single game against a team with pulse, except for Colorado (who an argument can be made is playing much better now than in November). Losing to some of those teams is understandable; losing to ALL of them just exposed that Tennessee really wasn't that good.

I could swear that I read this same exact post recently. Did you just copy and paste someone else's post or just repost?

 

[Coach Jumper]

And that's always a coaching challenge. When do you throw in the towel on the current season and start playing for the future? When you do that, expect core players to also throw in the towel.

Preferably you don't wait till the seasons at risk you do it early enough so you can start developing the weaknesses of the incoming player

 

[Coach Jumper]

.....
Jackson, for example, is not a good defender because she doesn't really care 100 percent about being a good defender. She plays defense upright--and that causes her to get beat off the dribble like most everyone else on the team.
She could be a very good defender if she wanted to, but it's clear that she isn't totally committed. You can't properly guard somebody with the ball
when you are practically standing straight up--and that's what she does. It's fundamentals and commitment--and on the defensive end, she doesn't
have them. We need her to be more committed defensively because the rest of the team struggles so much to defend.

Are you serious? You must be thinking about Michael Jackson

 

[madtownvol]

Really, I believe it may be our general lack of quickness that is affecting everything. A fast/hard-driving opponent attacks and we struggle to stay in front of them. Then, because we lack (overall) speed, that means opposing defenses CAN stay in front of US. The offense sputters because we generally aren't moving our bodies/reacting as quickly as many of our opponents.

The want-to is there with this team. It's obvious to me they work very hard and they never give up. Getting to two overtimes last night after they'd been pretty much dead in the water demonstrated their competitiveness and desire. We're just a step slower in some key areas, and these days that's difficult to overcome. And we have a very quick, good defender guard in Miles, but I'm gathering her being on the small side is keeping her off the floor.

We just haven't been able to land the RJ-level quick players, and we have got to figure that out soon.

I am not directing this comment to you per se because the "we just ain't quick enough" narrative is ubiquitous on the board.

Wynn and Powell are as quick as any players you will find. So are Horston and Jackson. Hollingshead is a gazelle for 6-5 players. But Powell and Wynn still get beat off the dribble all the time. There is fundamental positioning issues that are in play. Walker has been slowed to some extent by her knee injury she played some great one on one defense last night. Tess gets beat less than some of the "quicker" players but she still gets beat in some one-on-one matches.

Not having the queen of blocks in the line-up hurts because she literally erased a lot of defensive problems last season. If key did not get the block, she altered a lot of shots. She probably kept 10 points off the board every game. Factor that difference in and think about the implications.

But that is not an excuse. Defense is about team cohesion, switching, not losing players on back cuts. We have been met slower teams that defended us really well.

Our line-up is not that different from last seasons, particularly when Rae was out. We are down Dye who was a good defender but have gained Hollingshead and Franklin and Jackson. last season, when the LVs slumped, we matched up against some teams whose post could hit shots from the perimeter, which drew Key out of the paint and the team looked pretty bad defensively in those games too because the driving lanes were open.

 

[Darth_Vol]

That's just not true. We're #20 in the NET, Belmont is #92. We're #13 in Her Hoop Stats ratings, Belmont is #76. Our RPI is #22, Belmont is #86. We lost to LSU and Stanford, both on the road, by a combined 15 points.

We beat Chattanooga by 30, Belmont beat them by 2. We beat Georgia by 13, Belmont lost to Georgia by 11.

The difference is, mid-major teams rarely have a talent like a Jackson or a Horston, two players who will be high WNBA draft picks who have basically carried the team to what modest success it has had this season. Take them away, and you have a roster that's comparable to a mid-major team.

Reminds me of the Diamond Deshields/Mercedes Russell days. It's a shame to see such great talent wasted on such a mediocre team...

 

[Amb3096]

I could swear that I read this same exact post recently. Did you just copy and paste someone else's post or just repost?

I mean, it's pretty much common sense. I've said it in the past, and I'm sure others have as well. Not exactly an earth shattering conclusion...

 

[Majors]

The difference is, mid-major teams rarely have a talent like a Jackson or a Horston, two players who will be high WNBA draft picks who have basically carried the team to what modest success it has had this season. Take them away, and you have a roster that's comparable to a mid-major team.

Reminds me of the Diamond Deshields/Mercedes Russell days. It's a shame to see such great talent wasted on such a mediocre team...

You take one out of the equation and the other teams win percentage goes up, take both out and oh my.

 

[Redleg68]

Really, I believe it may be our general lack of quickness that is affecting everything. A fast/hard-driving opponent attacks and we struggle to stay in front of them. Then, because we lack (overall) speed, that means opposing defenses CAN stay in front of US. The offense sputters because we generally aren't moving our bodies/reacting as quickly as many of our opponents.

The want-to is there with this team. It's obvious to me they work very hard and they never give up. Getting to two overtimes last night after they'd been pretty much dead in the water demonstrated their competitiveness and desire. We're just a step slower in some key areas, and these days that's difficult to overcome. And we have a very quick, good defender guard in Miles, but I'm gathering her being on the small side is keeping her off the floor.

We just haven't been able to land the RJ-level quick players, and we have got to figure that out soon.

For the first time last night, I watched a Lady Vol entire game. It may have been a one game, but the critical thing that stood out to me last night was lack of ball security and lazy passing. The good thing that stood out was hustle and determination. The lazy passing can be fixed with a few hundred laps.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

what recruits? We’ve recruited no high school players for next year

We have a couple of HS commitments for the future AND we will have to recruit out of the portal this offseason.

 

[37620VOL]

LVs were +7 when Hayes was in the game. Hayes -7 was the worst +/- of any player that participated.

 

[dtnvol]

Are you serious? You must be thinking about Michael Jackson

She may not be a great defender, but she works hard on trying to score and get rebounds...her defense or lack there of, is not the issue...the issue is, by now all of the ladies should feel comfortable being on the floor and knowing where to be when they are out there [this is not happening]...playing the right rotation [it isn't happening]...Wynn should being playing 5x the minutes she playing [if nothing else,, she'll bring size and defense to the guard spot]...Pissott is being totally wasted sitting on the bench [she has a good shot and she brings effort, so play her more ]...gonna need her and Wynn tremendously next season...Guys I'm just so frustrated with where I thought the LVs would be right now...From FINAL4 talk to THIS ...LVFL

 

[madtownvol]

I really wanted Kellie to succeed here and it just is not happening. She keeps talking at the end of games how we are getting better and you just can't see it in games. What we going to do next season? If were starting over think it would be better to do it with a more established coach. Jackson is leaving she isn't staying here for anymore of this. Other than Hollingshead and maybe Puckett and possibly Justine I can't think of another player that I care about staying. Of course if Kellie goes they probably go to, but looks like were starting over again next season unless a miracle happens in the portal so we could do that with someone else.

Tamari Key.

 

[LUVMESUMVOL]

RockyTop is the Move & Stand on Business please come out and defend this like you always try to do

 

[Volfan2012]

Tamari Key.

Yes of course but what she will do is really uncertain.

 

[youcancallmeAl]

On one in-bounds play, Walker ignored a wide-open Sara who had just hit two shots, tried to force it inside, and turned it over.

I saw that too. Puckett was about 4 feet from Walker in he corner behind the three point line, with no defender between them, and no defender on Puckett. I don't know if Walker missed seeing her, or just was determined to get it inside, but when she threw it into a crowd of players and turned it over, I yelled at the TV in frustration.

 

[madtownvol]

The quickness needs while still playing hard seems to be a reasoned, accurate observation.

Imo, this particular weakness creates several major defensive problems. The perimeter guards are afraid of getting beaten off the dribble, so they are prone to back off and to go behind screens instead of sliding over the top, even when there is plenty of room to do so. The offensive player then has plenty of space to operate or to step back for an open three. Same for Tess, except she usually tries to go over the screen. But if she closes out and the offense gets a first step, they're gone. So we either give up a layup or try to help and leave a unguarded shooter in the corner.

Likewise, in the paint, our posts have a hard time sliding over to stop a quick guard curling around the lane (or a quick post player). And we don't have a consistent shot blocker due to lack of height or quickness.

The same problems crop up on offense. We rarely take anyone off the dribble and are so focused on protecting the ball that we don't find open teammates. Several times we had Jill or Rickea posting up hard in a mismatch and wouldn't or couldn't get the ball inside. We have trouble getting free on out of bounds plays and usually end up throwing the ball over the top toward midcourt. And when we do get someone free in the corner, we don't find them. On one in-bounds play, Walker ignored a wide-open Sara who had just hit two shots, tried to force it inside, and turned it over.

We can be a good offensive team if we'll just get better at setting and using screens. Our posts do a decent job of setting inside screens to seal off defenders. But our guards won't take the defense into the screen (when teammates actually set picks). Or ignore and wave off the screens. It should be second nature by now. Doing that alone would increase movement, although other teammates need to react and keep moving to avoid bunching up.

Hard to increase quickness, but teams can be coached to hide weaknesses by playing good position defense, anticipating passes, trapping smaller players in double teams, etc. Will never be ideal but often enough to win, often by a comfortable margin.

Gut-check time for team and staff. They need to ignore the outside noise from the fickle rabble and recommit to getting better. That's the challenge for the staff.

As for the challenge to the fans, better left unsaid. Real fans know how to behave during a trying season. The rest don't matter.

Creekdipper, I seldom disagree with you but I think the "quickness" rationale just does not hold up. When we have Walker, Jackson, Hollingshead on the court, relative to their positions, that is plenty of quicks. Kellie plays Powell and Walker together a lot as well (I don't like that line-up but they should be able to press defensively). When we had Wynn on the court, albeit briefly not much changed. Sure Tess and Karo and Sara are not going to win many sprint battles but teams like Indiana, Ohio State, Iowa, and even Stanford have players in their line-up that are far from being "fast twitch" monsters. They seem to find ways to defend.

The LV's defensive positioning, rotations, court awareness, and anticipation are not very good. Key literally erased a lot of these problems last season. Our defense is as spotty as our offense. They can play well in stretches but can't sustain the intensity and focus over an entire game.

 

[GBOTango]

Mississippi State grad/fan and also long time LVs supporter.......I didn't actually watch but have seen UT play other games this year.
I too was optimistic about Harper's hire and also the team this year. Rickea Jackson and Jordan Horston are terrific players. I'm glad RJ is doing well at UT. I think it was best for both she and MSU to move on and wished her no ill will.

The LVs are slow. They've been slow dating back to Pat's teams and there isn't much coaching that makes a player faster. Footwork and defense can be improved but only to a point. The LVs also struggle with outside shooting. The current crop of players aren't bad but none of them have offered consistent outside shooting that can accomodate when the defense packs in the paint.

This really is the first game where the LVs lost to a significantly less talented and generally less capable team. While Gonzaga and UCLA aren't exactly world beaters there is no shame in losing to UConn, OSU, Indiana, VT, or even LSU in Baton Rouge coached by one of the best in the game. The schedule was too loaded to start the year but what's done is done.

What can be done now is to drop the stubborness about the rotations and playing time. Your starters are Walker, Horston, Darby, Jackson and Hollingshed. Pucket, Powell and Franklin can come in during short bursts for relief. Your defense is zone. This team isn't able to play man to man against almost anyone. Success for this year will now be winning as many as possible, winning at least one game in the SEC tournament, and making it to weekend 2. if possible. Nothing else matters.

Worry about next year when this is over. There is still time to end on a good note.

While I agree with your assessment, the coach has got to make these decisions. She also has to hold her players accountable. I you have the players, then the X's and O's and the accountability lies with the coaching staff. Currently, we have the athletes, but with the lack of recruits coming, I think we are in trouble.

 

[madtownvol]

Totally disagree. I thought RJ played really good D last night and does most of the time. She made a great stop and forced a t.o. when we needed it most. Also a great defensive play on the steal of out of bounds play. Also a couple of nice blocks. Like everything w her, she makes it look effortless.

The times RJ slacks off D is bc she is so cautious about fouling. When someone gets around her (which happens to everyone on the team), she does not foul even if it means letting them score. Sometimes does not come over to help for the same reason. As our only consistent scorer, I can see why she doesn't give up the fouls. Not sure it's a bad decision.

And she took charges. The problem is not Rickea. It is just about everything else...

 

[37620VOL]

I saw that too. Puckett was about 4 feet from Walker in he corner behind the three point line, with no defender between them, and no defender on Puckett. I don't know if Walker missed seeing her, or just was determined to get it inside, but when she threw it into a crowd of players and turned it over, I yelled at the TV in frustration.

I think she threw it where the play was designed. State saw it coming a mile away, and yes, she should have faked the pass to RJ and kicked to SP for the wide-open 3. That was a huge inflection point in the game.

 

[OrangeBeachVol]

I’d expect an overhaul on the assistants either taking jobs elsewhere to get out in front or relieved of duties.

I think watching what happens with the asst. coaches will be telling. As you know, a HC gets a one time shot at blaming asst. coaches for a bad season and replacing them, but if we see asst. coaches leaving on their own after this season, that could be telling that they think the HC's days may be numbered and bailing early.

 

[glv98]

I realize that, but my main point is that noone would have predicted some of the issues that contributed to them getting off to such a bad start. There were legitimate reasons, IMO, that rose above mere "excuses."


I maintain she took a risk, yes, but at the time it didn't seem at all like an outrageous risk. Then sh t happened!

Taking a risk is fine, but you don't have to take such a huge one. With so many unknowns, seems to me you schedule inbetween Kellie's Murder's row and Kim's Cupcake trail. 2 or 3 top tens and some mid majors preseason. Just not the whole top 10. And I know she didn't know all of them would be as good as they are, but still. It was too big a risk and it backfired big time.

teams like Indiana, Ohio State, Iowa, and even Stanford have players in their line-up that are far from being "fast twitch" monsters. They seem to find ways to defend.

Yes! How are so many midwestern those kind of teams so good with rosters full of such players. Our development of these players is slow and painful.