Give the devil his due (Kiffin)

[kptvol]

Attempt to move the ball forward instead of running down the clock, for starters.

Great plan. We've got a QB that seems to forget which color his receivers are wearing, walk-ons on the OL blocking a 500-lb man, and Bama has the #1 defense in the country. We've also already had one BS holding call keep us out of a likely TD situation.

 

[Incinigator]

Great plan. We've got a QB that seems to forget which color his receivers are wearing, walk-ons on the OL blocking a 500-lb man, and Bama has the #1 defense in the country. We've also already had one BS holding call keep us out of a likely TD situation.

Yet after almost 4 quarters the vols were in a position to win the game. Just my opinion but with NOTHING to lose, why not try to move the ball for a better attempt ?

 

[Cartervol]

The difference in penalties is why Kiffin tried it right there instead of continuing. I would have liked them to run another play or two but i see his point. He rolled the dice and lost. Didn't help his kicker couldn't get the ball 6 foot in the air out of the hold. Cody was just in the way, twice, he did nothing special. Special teams cost us a couple of games last year, lets hope these new kickers are solid.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Yet after almost 4 quarters the vols were in a position to win the game. Just my opinion but with NOTHING to lose, why not try to move the ball for a better attempt ?

he specifically said that the previous phantom holding call that moved us out of makeable FG range was part of the decision process. He didn't have to say that our QB situation was the rest of the decision process.

 

[tm3]

Obviously...it's not like he had a 46 yard unblocked kick in the first half or anything

or a more recent FG attempt that, like the potential game winner, was a line drive straight into cody's cleavage.

laney didn't exactly have a slam dunk choice -- shaky kicker vs shaky qb (and shaky O line had a negative effect on both). but crompton (and stocker) had made some good plays to get us into position.

plus one of the choices had the potential of making the HC look like the goat ...

 

[TrueOrange]

Which one went an entire decade without winning any kind of championship?

....both

 

[TrueOrange]

So if he makes the field goal, monte's kid is a genius and it's not Fulmer's fault?

Because he missed the kick, monte's kid is still a genius and it's Fulmer's fault ?

obviously the answer is "it's always fulmers fault"

 

[TrueOrange]

Great plan. We've got a QB that seems to forget which color his receivers are wearing, walk-ons on the OL blocking a 500-lb man, and Bama has the #1 defense in the country. We've also already had one BS holding call keep us out of a likely TD situation.

we'd just driven it down the field from Tenn's 41 to Bama's 27 on passing alone. and had about either 46 secs or close to a minute left.

Your kicker has been having a terrible day: being only 1/3 on the day (24 yards) and just had one blocked from the exact same location and distance. (sorry making an edit: the 2nd blocked field goal was actually kicked from a yard further back than the 1st)

Your QB has actually been 21/36, thrown 265 yards and a TD and only 1 INT which was in the 1st quarter.

By all means - with a timeout still in hand and a 1st down stopping the clock - it makes much more sense -(especially since the last FG from right there had been blocked) to get closer to make it easier on your kicker, so at the very least he can kick it higher rather than worrying about distance, rather than just run down the clock and kick there again

 

[TrueOrange]

or a more recent FG attempt that, like the potential game winner, was a line drive straight into cody's cleavage.

laney didn't exactly have a slam dunk choice -- shaky kicker vs shaky qb (and shaky O line had a negative effect on both). but crompton (and stocker) had made some good plays to get us into position.

plus one of the choices had the potential of making the HC look like the goat ...

honestly, they both did

 

[kptvol]

Yet after almost 4 quarters the vols were in a position to win the game. Just my opinion but with NOTHING to lose, why not try to move the ball for a better attempt ?

"Nothing"? Your QB has probably the highest bobbled snap and botched handoff rate in UT history, you've already had one phantom hold knock you back 10 yards, and the interior of your line has been getting whipped by Mt. Cody. There was plenty to lose.

 

[kptvol]

we'd just driven it down the field from Tenn's 41 to Bama's 27 on passing alone. and had about either 46 secs or close to a minute left.

Your kicker has been having a terrible day: being only 1/3 on the day (24 yards) and just had one blocked from the exact same location and distance.

Your QB has actually been 21/36, thrown 265 yards and a TD and only 1 INT which was in the 1st quarter.

By all means - with a timeout still in hand and a 1st down stopping the clock - it makes much more sense -(especially since the last FG from right there had been blocked) to get closer to make it easier on your kicker, so at the very least he can kick it higher rather than worrying about distance, rather than just run down the clock and kick there again

He's had one decent game against SEC competition thus far. And even in that game he threw a bone-headed pass that went the other way for six. And, he stated he was worried that Alabama (the team that had I believe one holding call in SEC play) would get a favorable/BS call that took us out of field goal range.

 

[kptvol]

obviously the answer is "it's always fulmers fault"

Not sure why after the last two anal resizings we're supposed to blame the new guy for losing by 2 after the old guy's kicker whiffed and then had a redemption whiff.

 

[TrueOrange]

Not sure why after the last two anal resizings we're supposed to blame the new guy for losing by 2 after the old guy's kicker whiffed and then had a redemption whiff.

it was a joke... of how most people react to things on this board

 

[TrueOrange]

He's had one decent game against SEC competition thus far. And even in that game he threw a bone-headed pass that went the other way for six. And, he stated he was worried that Alabama (the team that had I believe one holding call in SEC play) would get a favorable/BS call that took us out of field goal range.

And the entire game he's been playing well.

Kiffin said in the afterwards interviews that he made the wrong call....i'm not supporting the guy with this, but afterwards even he realized it was the wrong call; if anything, he made the mistake of playing it too safe here


and worrying about a BS call excuse (if he made that) is BS; you can't play football that way, regardless of what has happened to you penalty wise day

 

[kptvol]

and worrying about a BS call excuse (if he made that) is BS; you can't play football that way, regardless of what has happened to you penalty wise day

That sounds good in theory, but if you've got a makeable field goal... against the number one team in the land... trying to make a name for yourself in your first year... one crappy call and it's all over. And last year the endgame officiating in the SEC was so horrible as to spark a pretty widespread Bama/Florida conspiracy theory.

 

[TrueOrange]

That sounds good in theory, but if you've got a makeable field goal... against the number one team in the land... trying to make a name for yourself in your first year... one crappy call and it's all over. And last year the endgame officiating in the SEC was so horrible as to spark a pretty widespread Bama/Florida conspiracy theory.

you've kicked 2 field goals from that distance that have either 1) gone wide or 2) been blocked (from that exact spot) your kicker doesn't have to be Al Del Greco for most coaches to know that - with a timeout - this isn't the best spot for him to be kicking from.

Any play can go wrong with a penalty - if there was a hold on the music city miracle or the immaculate reception it would have been all for naught in the end - but you just can't play the game that way...conspiracy theories or not


The main point of criticism came after he got to the 44 yard range. A field goal had just been blocked there, in a way where it wasn't even close to getting through there. You have about 46 secs and a timeout and the chains will stop the clock if need be. So essentially you have enough to run 3 to even 4 more plays, worst case scenario 2 and a timeout, but you only really need 1 to work to be in much better field position. Kiffin chose instead to run the ball to set it up in the middle (like the problem was it had gone wide instead), and let the clock run down from there till about 3 secs and try something again that didn't work the last time

Also, I'm not talking about this out of hindsight; when I saw the run play and the clock start to drain, I and several people said "this is the exact same place he kicked from last time, if not a yard further. It wasn't a breakthrough surge, he had to kick it low for the distance and it was blocked. This is going to get blocked again"

He had enough time to get it anywhere from 6 to 12-15 yards (or on a really good pass 17-20 or there was probably enough time for 2 plays) further down field (the team currently had the momentum actually as well), which again in turn would allow the kicker to make a higher arc rather than a lower one and have to worry about the distance.

Honestly though, it was a head coaching mistake on inexperience more than anything else, and one of those a coach learns from...but this one does seem to have a bit of a more common-sensed component (know that's not the word I want, sorry blanked on the right word) to it as well

 

[Incinigator]

"Nothing"? Your QB has probably the highest bobbled snap and botched handoff rate in UT history, you've already had one phantom hold knock you back 10 yards, and the interior of your line has been getting whipped by Mt. Cody. There was plenty to lose.

He's had one decent game against SEC competition thus far. And even in that game he threw a bone-headed pass that went the other way for six. And, he stated he was worried that Alabama (the team that had I believe one holding call in SEC play) would get a favorable/BS call that took us out of field goal range.

That sounds good in theory, but if you've got a makeable field goal... against the number one team in the land... trying to make a name for yourself in your first year... one crappy call and it's all over. And last year the endgame officiating in the SEC was so horrible as to spark a pretty widespread Bama/Florida conspiracy theory.

At that point, ut was 3-3 and a win vs. Bama saves the vols' season. Another close loss meant NOTHING.

So after almost 4 quarters of playing well enough to be in position to beat the best team in the country ON THE ROAD, the fear of a possible bobbled snap and a firm belief that the officials(in a conspiracy with the SEC) are ready to call another "phantom" penalty in order to benefit Bama makes running down the clock and attempting a another VERY LOW percentage 44 yd. kick (one block already) the smart play ?

Really ?

Why not take a knee on that play to preserve the 2 point loss and avoid the possibility of an embarrassing 8 point loss ?

 

[kptvol]

He had enough time to get it anywhere from 6 to 12-15 yards (or on a really good pass 17-20 or there was probably enough time for 2 plays) further down field (the team currently had the momentum actually as well), which again in turn would allow the kicker to make a higher arc rather than a lower one and have to worry about the distance.

You may be right. But you've got Jon Crompton throwing against the best-coached secondary in the nation with a pass rush that's been pretty effective. You're also in a situation where Nick Saban and the Tide know exactly what you'll be trying to do.

 

[kptvol]

At that point, ut was 3-3 and a win vs. Bama saves the vols' season. Another close loss meant NOTHING.

So after almost 4 quarters of playing well enough to be in position to beat the best team in the country ON THE ROAD, the fear of a possible bobbled snap and a firm belief that the officials(in a conspiracy with the SEC) are ready to call another "phantom" penalty in order to benefit Bama makes running down the clock and attempting a another VERY LOW percentage 44 yd. kick (one block already) the smart play ?

Really ?

Why not take a knee on that play to preserve the 2 point loss and avoid the possibility of an embarrassing 8 point loss ?

A 44 yard kick should not be a low percentage play. You're right, Kiffin wasn't shooting for another close loss. Get a holding penalty or an INT, and that's what you have.

 

[BigPapaVol]

At that point, ut was 3-3 and a win vs. Bama saves the vols' season. Another close loss meant NOTHING.

So after almost 4 quarters of playing well enough to be in position to beat the best team in the country ON THE ROAD, the fear of a possible bobbled snap and a firm belief that the officials(in a conspiracy with the SEC) are ready to call another "phantom" penalty in order to benefit Bama makes running down the clock and attempting a another VERY LOW percentage 44 yd. kick (one block already) the smart play ?

Really ?

Why not take a knee on that play to preserve the 2 point loss and avoid the possibility of an embarrassing 8 point loss ?

so a second blocked FG was more likely than another phantom holding call at that point on AL's home turf? Interesting.

 

[TrueOrange]

You may be right. But you've got Jon Crompton throwing against the best-coached secondary in the nation with a pass rush that's been pretty effective. You're also in a situation where Nick Saban and the Tide know exactly what you'll be trying to do.

crompton's been throwing well the entire game though and really only had one bad pass in the first quarter.

And when Nick Saban "knew what we were going to be trying to do" we were able to drive down from the UT 41 to the Bama 27 in only 30 secs clock time. Plus we had all the momentum at that point (we had just forced and recovered a fumble, driven down field and scored a TD, recovered an onside kick, and driven 34 yards downfield to get into field goal range) 48 seconds left, a timeout, and the benefit of a clock stopping for first downs.

If those ideas of his worries or conspiracies getting the best of him are true, then what happened was not only did he play it safe, he played it too safe....which - and i hate to make this comparison here because believe me I'm not a supporter of either - sounds similar to the stuff everyone here rants on and on about how fulmer coached, but maybe that's just me


It was probably just inexperience more than anything else, but most head coaches know their kicker's ranges and are willing to adjust it closer on field goals depending on the conditions of the current day (weather or the long distance kicks not making it). But if you've got the momentum and the time, you have to move it in further so your kicker who's been having a bad day (and was just blocked from a yard shorter) can have an easier try.

 

[TrueOrange]

so a second blocked FG was more likely than another phantom holding call at that point on AL's home turf? Interesting.

i honestly hate to say it....but from the a yard further back when the last one hit the guy without having to really even break through the line....yeah another long fg getting blocked from a yard shorter does kinda seem more likely than a holding penalty...:twocents:

 

[TrueOrange]

A 44 yard kick should not be a low percentage play. You're right, Kiffin wasn't shooting for another close loss. Get a holding penalty or an INT, and that's what you have.

what he did resulted in that one as well

 

[kptvol]

And when Nick Saban "knew what we were going to be trying to do" we were able to drive down from the UT 41 to the Bama 27 in only 30 secs clock time.

That sounds fun, but that's only 32 yards. Not exactly Manning and the Colts, there.

Plus we had all the momentum at that point (we had just forced and recovered a fumble, driven down field and scored a TD, recovered an onside kick, and driven 34 yards downfield to get into field goal range) 48 seconds left, a timeout, and the benefit of a clock stopping for first downs.

I believe we had some good momentum when Cromp Daddy threw the pick six agaisnt Jawja a week ago. I understand that Crompton was starting to turn the corner, but he's still already thrown 10 INTs that season.

If those ideas of his worries or conspiracies getting the best of him are true, then what happened was not only did he play it safe, he played it too safe....which - and i hate to make this comparison here because believe me I'm not a supporter of either - sounds similar to the stuff everyone here rants on and on about how fulmer coached, but maybe that's just me

I get the Fulmer thing. The difference being that Fulmer would play safe it with Manning and Lewis against a crew of middle-schoolers. Being conservative with a turnover machine against the nation's best defense is a different animal.

It was probably just inexperience more than anything else, but most head coaches know their kicker's ranges and are willing to adjust it closer on field goals depending on the conditions of the current day (weather or the long distance kicks not making it). But if you've got the momentum and the time, you have to move it in further so your kicker who's been having a bad day (and was just blocked from a yard shorter) can have an easier try.

I imagine Kiffin spoke to Lincoln about the kick and that's why he decided to center the ball. In retrospect he shouldn't have listened when Lincoln told him he could make it, but that's the way it goes sometimes. A damn shame we couldn't have had Palardy a year earlier.

 

[kptvol]

what he did resulted in that one as well

Thanks for the input. The point was that it would be preferable to take a chance with a scoring opportunity than be pushed outside field goal range and never again get a chance.