Ground zero mosque.

#201
#201
KiffinKiller said:
They aren't leftists. They are just idiots. There's idiots on all sides though.
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Sorry KK but no. This goes to the fundamental differences between those who gravitate to the left and those who gravitate to the right. It is a very foundational question about worldviews.

The left is much more likely to have thought about it and still say "Truth is relative". They are also more likely to believe that the ends justify the beliefs and that there are no objective, transcendant moral truths.

Therefore "facts" or consistency are NOT a requirement. A story fabricated about Bush's NG service gets full press coverage. Obama's 20 year relationship with Wright gets dismissed and anyone who would dare detail Wrights teachings will be declared a racist. The mere suggestion that the GOP might have poll watchers that make minority voters uncomfortable pours through every news outlet as potential voter intimidation. The very real story about New Black Panther polling place intimidation is minimized.

Can you demonstrate that this is a 50-50, "both sides do it all the time" type of thing with direct examples?

The last great liberal politician with integrity (Patrick Moynihan) once said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinions but not his own facts." Modern liberals no longer believe that.
 
#202
#202
utvolpj said:
and that's where you fail every time
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Sorry but no.

I respect you but a significant number of Muslims consider those who die as Islamic martyrs heroes. After 9/11 there were street celebrations in several Muslim countries.

The more fundamental or "good" a Muslim is... the more obedient he is to the very literal and strict interpretation of the Koran... the more he's a candidate to become what we call an "extremist".
 
#203
#203
sjt18 said:
Sorry KK but no. This goes to the fundamental differences between those who gravitate to the left and those who gravitate to the right. It is a very foundational question about worldviews.

The left is much more likely to have thought about it and still say "Truth is relative". They are also more likely to believe that the ends justify the beliefs and that there are no objective, transcendant moral truths.

Therefore "facts" or consistency are NOT a requirement. A story fabricated about Bush's NG service gets full press coverage. Obama's 20 year relationship with Wright gets dismissed and anyone who would dare detail Wrights teachings will be declared a racist. The mere suggestion that the GOP might have poll watchers that make minority voters uncomfortable pours through every news outlet as potential voter intimidation. The very real story about New Black Panther polling place intimidation is minimized.

Can you demonstrate that this is a 50-50, "both sides do it all the time" type of thing with direct examples?

The last great liberal politician with integrity (Patrick Moynihan) once said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinions but not his own facts." Modern liberals no longer believe that.
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There are idiots on both sides... Glenn Beck comes to mind. I just don't believe the entire right is morally incompetent - as you should probably see about the left. Although I do agree that the political system here is set up to help idiots succeed.
 
#204
#204
sjt18 said:
Sorry but no.

I respect you but a significant number of Muslims consider those who die as Islamic martyrs heroes. After 9/11 there were street celebrations in several Muslim countries.

The more fundamental or "good" a Muslim is... the more obedient he is to the very literal and strict interpretation of the Koran... the more he's a candidate to become what we call an "extremist".
Click to expand...

You are correct, they just simply don't understand.
 
#205
#205
sjt18 said:
Sorry but no.

I respect you but a significant number of Muslims consider those who die as Islamic martyrs heroes. After 9/11 there were street celebrations in several Muslim countries.

The more fundamental or "good" a Muslim is... the more obedient he is to the very literal and strict interpretation of the Koran... the more he's a candidate to become what we call an "extremist".
Click to expand...

from years of study of their religion I'm sure. You, justin and the like just parrot talking points from right-wingers and expect it to all be taken as true. It's not. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in the world so there are sure to be fanatics (like every religion) but the vast majority do not agree with it. If they did there would be bombs on the streets of the US every day but there are not
 
#206
#206
sjt18 said:
Sorry but no.

I respect you but a significant number of Muslims consider those who die as Islamic martyrs heroes. After 9/11 there were street celebrations in several Muslim countries.

The more fundamental or "good" a Muslim is... the more obedient he is to the very literal and strict interpretation of the Koran... the more he's a candidate to become what we call an "extremist".
Click to expand...


WTF does that mean?

Arguing with you people is like trying to grab ahold of jello. Its all "a lot of people," "many Muslims," "true Christians," etc etc

When you talk like that, it is pretty apparent you either have not thought this through at all (likely) or are intentionally sweeping in broad brushes knowing that there is little if any factual basis for doing so but because it fits your ideological argument (likely), or both (most likely).
 
#207
#207
utvolpj said:
from years of study of their religion I'm sure. You, justin and the like just parrot talking points from right-wingers and expect it to all be taken as true. It's not. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in the world so there are sure to be fanatics (like every religion) but the vast majority do not agree with it. If they did there would be bombs on the streets of the US every day but there are not
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Amazing how you and your ilk will defend these terrorists no matter what, even after they have killed thousands of Americans on our soil and around the world. I have listened to many on the topic, including many who used to be Muslims and expose the "religion" for what it really is.
 
#208
#208
volfanjustin said:
Amazing how you and your ilk will defend these terrorists no matter what, even after they have killed thousands of Americans on our soil and around the world. I have listened to many on the topic, including many who used to be Muslims and expose the "religion" for what it really is.
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I have never defended a single terrorist in my life and challenge you to link where I have. If you can't link it then you are just lying. However you have condemned an entire religion on the actions of a few. Well done, it makes you look quite intelligent
 
#209
#209
utvolpj said:
I have never defended a single terrorist in my life and challenge you to link where I have. If you can't link it then you are just lying. However you have condemned an entire religion on the actions of a few. Well done, it makes you look quite intelligent
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But they are our 'enemies'
 
#210
#210
KiffinKiller said:
There are idiots on both sides... Glenn Beck comes to mind.
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Prove it. Beck is a very intelligent and informed guy. Presenting facts that you don't know or like or giving opinions that challenge your comfort zone does not make someone an idiot.

I'll challenge you now. Show us the factual, historical errors Beck is guilty of presenting. Demonstrate that his brand of libertarianism isn't very, very much in line with the philsophy of the Founders.

I am going to go on record here in predicting that you will either fail completely or not even try.

I just don't believe the entire right is morally incompetent - as you should probably see about the left.
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I'm not making my mind up... I'm listening to what they say and do. Think of the great "liberals" of the last half century even. MLK wanted a color blind society... can that truly be said of modern liberals? Do they really think anything that is wrong one way is wrong the other? What if we had "White Entertainment TV" or the "Congressional White Caucus"? Racism is racism, right? No. Not to the left.

Although I do agree that the political system here is set up to help idiots succeed.
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But it really, really isn't. What enables "idiots" to succeed is that we don't demand rule of law and gov't has grown too large and intrusive. We accept that what Rangel, Clinton, and others including some Rep's is "just politics". Well, it is if we don't demand integrity and honor. "Idiots" can make political promises only because gov't is believed to have the legitimate power to fulfill them... even when it doesn't.

De Toqueville said that the American democracy would only last until politicians discovered they could buy the people's votes with their own money... almost 50% of the American voting public is that foolish right now.
 
#211
#211
sjt18 said:
I'll challenge you now. Show us the factual, historical errors Beck is guilty of presenting. Demonstrate that his brand of libertarianism isn't very, very much in line with the philsophy of the Founders.
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1) google Glenn Beck errors and read for days

2) he is not a libertarian
 
#212
#212
Glenn Beck: the Jewish Funds for Justice’s statement in support of social justice "is exactly the kind of talk that led to the death camps in Germany."
 
#213
#213
lawgator1 said:
WTF does that mean?

Arguing with you people is like trying to grab ahold of jello. Its all "a lot of people," "many Muslims," "true Christians," etc etc
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Holy cow... this coming from YOU?

The estimate is that 10% of muslims are in agreement or near agreement with those who commit terrorist acts. That's about 100 million people and the estimate is considered conservative.

I had a conversation a few years ago with a lady from Iran. She said a majority of the people want freedom and peace but the mullahs control the population with a minority but "significant" part of the population supporting them.

When you talk like that, it is pretty apparent you either have not thought this through at all (likely) or are intentionally sweeping in broad brushes knowing that there is little if any factual basis for doing so but because it fits your ideological argument (likely), or both (most likely).
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When you deny that against all evidence it is pretty apparent you have not informed yourself at all but have rather adopted the leftist PC position in denial of reality.
 
#214
#214
volfanjustin said:
Amazing how you and your ilk will defend these terrorists no matter what, even after they have killed thousands of Americans on our soil and around the world. I have listened to many on the topic, including many who used to be Muslims and expose the "religion" for what it really is.
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There's that kind of logic again, "many" have "exposed" the religion for what it "really" is.

More rhetoric. No fact.

Tell you what, I have a Muslim genetleman come to my Presbyterian church a couple of years ago. He is a commercial airline pilot and was in the air on 9/11 and so said he had all sorts of unique perspective on things.

Emphasized that this was one very small contingent of Muslims who were using his religion in their warped and evil way, that everyone he knew in the Muslim community condemned it, that he was there to discuss the religions openly. Explained historical difference in brachning of the Muslim faith, etc.

So there. That guy was telling the truth and the "many" people you are citing are lying scumbags with a political agenda.

Prove me wrong.
 
#215
#215
I think there needs to be a mosque began in NYC this near Ground Zero about as much as I think Westboro Baptist Church needs to relocate next to Arlington Cemetary.
 
#216
#216
KiffinKiller said:
Glenn Beck: the Jewish Funds for Justice’s statement in support of social justice "is exactly the kind of talk that led to the death camps in Germany."
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Opinion. You may not agree... but you have not presented a factual error.
 
#218
#218
"I think there is a handful of people who hate America. Unfortunately for them, a lot of them are losing their homes in a forest fire today." - Beck

Beck's comment came as forest fires ravaged parts of Southern California, leaving one person dead, four firefighters wounded, and forcing about 1,500 people from their homes

Does Beck even realize there are loads of republicans in San Diego county?
 
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#219
#219
sjt18 said:
Opinion. You may not agree... but you have not presented a factual error.
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Glen Beck -

I don't think deep down he truly believe half the things he says now. He says them because that is what his listeners want to hear.
 
#220
#220
utvolpj said:
I have never defended a single terrorist in my life and challenge you to link where I have. If you can't link it then you are just lying. However you have condemned an entire religion on the actions of a few. Well done, it makes you look quite intelligent
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I have said many times, not every Muslim is a terrorist. Is that hard for you to understand?
 
#221
#221
utvolpj said:
from years of study of their religion I'm sure. You, justin and the like just parrot talking points from right-wingers and expect it to all be taken as true. It's not. Islam is the 2nd largest religion in the world so there are sure to be fanatics (like every religion) but the vast majority do not agree with it. If they did there would be bombs on the streets of the US every day but there are not
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Tell it to Christians in The Sudan, Indonesia, Nigeria, Iran, Afghanistan, even a relatively modern and secular country like Kenya. Tell it to the parents of school children in Israel.

Just because you don't see it on Mainstreet USA does NOT mean it isn't happening ALOT.
 
#224
#224
sjt18 said:
Tell it to Christians in The Sudan, Indonesia, Nigeria, Iran, Afghanistan, even a relatively modern and secular country like Kenya. Tell it to the parents of school children in Israel.

Just because you don't see it on Mainstreet USA does NOT mean it isn't happening ALOT.
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and proof of the exact same thing being done by Christians world-wide has been presented here and shrugged off as "they're not really like us". It either all fits in the puzzle or none of it does.

And I stand by my US statement since many on here say their main goal is to destroy America. You don't do that by killing some dude in Africa
 
#225
#225
KiffinKiller said:
"I think there is a handful of people who hate America. Unfortunately for them, a lot of them are losing their homes in a forest fire today." - Beck

Beck's comment came as forest fires ravaged parts of Southern California, leaving one person dead, four firefighters wounded, and forcing about 1,500 people from their homes

Does Beck even realize there are loads of republicans in San Diego county?
Click to expand...

Did someone say something about context earlier?

Link or discuss the whole statement in context please.
 
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