gs, neocon, sjt, and mur now have someone to vote for!

#127
#127
therealUT said:
God changed his mind 2,000 years ago.
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Not so, the Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, what happened two thousand years ago was just a further revelation of God's plan for mankind.

For those who believe God's prophets, but not false prophets such as muhammed, we can expect more revelations as we go.



therealUT said:
It is not an absolute, irrefutable truth.
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Well any honest, objective analysis of history can lead to no other conclusion.

Not even close.

1,400 Years of Islamic Aggression: An Analysis - Jihad Watch

You will note the string of adjectives and may have some objection to my using them. They are used because they are the absolute truth.

Anyone denying them is a victim of PC thinking, ignorant of history, or lying to protect Islam.

Let us take each word separately before we proceed further in our true history of the relationship between the Christian west and the Islamic east.

Imperialistic

The Muslim wars of imperialist conquest have been launched for almost 1,500 years against hundreds of nations, over millions of square miles (significantly larger than the British Empire at its peak). The lust for Muslim imperialist conquest stretched from southern France to the Philippines, from Austria to Nigeria, and from central Asia to New Guinea. This is the classic definition of imperialism -- "the policy and practice of seeking to dominate the economic and political affairs of weaker countries."

Colonialist

The Muslim goal was to have a central government, first at Damascus, and then at Baghdad -- later at Cairo, Istanbul, or other imperial centers. The local governors, judges, and other rulers were appointed by the central imperial authorities for far off colonies. Islamic law was introduced as the senior law, whether or not wanted by the local people. Arabic was introduced as the rulers' language, and the local language frequently disappeared. Two classes of residents were established. The native residents paid a tax that their colonialist rulers did not have to pay.

Although the law differed in different places, the following are examples of colonialist laws to which colonized Christians and Jews were made subject to over the years:

• Christians and Jews could not bear arms -- Muslims could;

• Christians and Jews could not ride horses -- Muslims could;

• Christians and Jews had to get permission to build -- Muslims did not;

• Christians and Jews had to pay certain taxes which Muslims did not;

• Christians could not proselytize -- Muslims could;

• Christians and Jews had to bow to their Muslim masters when they paid their taxes; and

• Christians and Jews had to live under the law set forth in the Koran, not under either their own religious or secular law.

In each case, these laws allowed the local conquered people less freedom than was allowed the conquering colonialist rulers. Even non-Arab Muslim inhabitants of the conquered lands became second class citizens behind the ruling Arabs. This is the classic definition of colonialist -- "a group of people who settle in a distant territory from the state having jurisdiction or control over it and who remain under the political jurisdiction of their native land."
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#128
#128
Notice how , as usual, the discussion went from the slayings in the name of Islam to non believers telling Christians what they believe and how Christianity is flawed.

With all due respect, I truly don't understand the mindset and how the Civil Right champions on the left are soo passionate about defending a religion that is so against those principles they claim they are fighting for.

By the way , this story just in...

Rockets Resume: Qassam Hits Kindergarten
Two rockets were fired from Gaza into the Negev - one seriously damaged a kindergarten that had, thank G-d, closed for the day.

Rockets Resume: Qassam Hits Kindergarten - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

I wonder how some of you would feel if we lived next door to people who indiscriminately lauch rocket attacks into your schools with your kids and whos leaders are on record, written in the charter, to destroy your people and its way of life, because our belief system is different from theirs and they cannot coexist.



Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20
 
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#129
#129
MUR73 said:
Notice how , as usual, the discussion went from the slayings in the name of Islam to non believers telling Christians what they believe and how Christianity is flawed.

With all due respect, I truly don't understand the mindset and how the Civil Right champions on the left are soo passionate about defending a religion that is so against those principles they claim they are fighting for.

By the way , this story just in...

Rockets Resume: Qassam Hits Kindergarten
Two rockets were fired from Gaza into the Negev - one seriously damaged a kindergarten that had, thank G-d, closed for the day.

Rockets Resume: Qassam Hits Kindergarten - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

I wonder how some of you would feel if we lived next door to people who indiscriminately lauch rocket attacks into your schools with your kids and whos leaders are on record, written in the charter, to destroy your people and its way of life, because our belief system is different from theirs and they cannot coexist.

Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20
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I don't know, but it kind of reminds me of the innocent children/people who are collateral damage to our drone bombings.
 
#130
#130
MUR73 said:
Notice how , as usual, the discussion went from the slayings in the name of Islam to non believers telling Christians what they believe and how Christianity is flawed.

With all due respect, I truly don't understand the mindset and how the Civil Right champions on the left are soo passionate about defending a religion that is so against those principles they claim they are fighting for.

By the way , this story just in...

Rockets Resume: Qassam Hits Kindergarten
Two rockets were fired from Gaza into the Negev - one seriously damaged a kindergarten that had, thank G-d, closed for the day.

Rockets Resume: Qassam Hits Kindergarten - Defense/Security - News - Israel National News

I wonder how some of you would feel if we lived next door to people who indiscriminately lauch rocket attacks into your schools with your kids and whos leaders are on record, written in the charter, to destroy your people and its way of life, because our belief system is different from theirs and they cannot coexist.



Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isaiah 5:20
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While you instantly blame Islam alongside folks like GS (It's so funny how often you two agree... I swear), I see terrible governments in most of these countries that have allowed religious extremism to run wild. I see a result of making political decisions based off a creed and what it can grow into.

All major world religions can be as dangerous as they wanna be.
 
#131
#131
DinkinFlicka said:
While you instantly blame Islam alongside folks like GS (It's so funny how often you two agree... I swear), I see terrible governments in most of these countries that have allowed religious extremism to run wild. I see a result of making political decisions based off a creed and what it can grow into.

All major world religions can be as dangerous as they wanna be.[/QUOTE]

No. Only Muslims. Not like the Christian Church kept the Bible from the common people, made them serfs, and took all their money to keep them from going to hell for 1,000 years.
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#132
#132
zjcvols said:
No. Only Muslims. Not like the Christian Church kept the Bible from the common people, made them serfs, and took all their money to keep them from going to hell for 1,000 years.
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Shhhhhhhh. No need to bring up the truth about the history of Christianity. The dark ages? What dark ages?
 
#135
#135
trevols81 said:
But, but... Islam is evil and Christianity has never done any wrong. gs said it so it must be true.
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You know I've never said that but go ahead and try to twist my words to perpetuate your own ignorance.





PKT_VOL said:
Shhhhhhhh. No need to bring up the truth about the history of Christianity. The dark ages? What dark ages?
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A good argument has been made that the dark ages were brought on by the advance of militant islam.





DinkinFlicka said:
While you instantly blame Islam alongside folks like GS (It's so funny how often you two agree... I swear), I see terrible governments in most of these countries that have allowed religious extremism to run wild. I see a result of making political decisions based off a creed and what it can grow into.

All major world religions can be as dangerous as they wanna be.
Click to expand...

So what? You are in lock step with several other ignoramouses on the board.

No, islam is the most retrogade religion on Earth and is at war with all other civilization. It is written in their koran, ie; the world is divided into two sections, the house of islam, where islamic law is supreme and the house of war, which must be conquered and made to submit to islam.

Christianity made itself at home in a peaceful manner in Egypt and in the Tigris Euphrates valleys but when islam burst out of Arabia it slaughertered all those who would not submit to moslem rule and that scenario is been repeated over and over ad nauseum.

Bottom line of this thread is that milo will allow the calling out of those with a conservative bent but will ban any poster starting a thread calling out progressives, marxists or dhimmis, including the threat that our grand poobah will never allow any such poster to ever post again.

To make it even worse, this thread was started by our leading troll, from Florida no less.

It would be nice for the man himself step in and clarify this situation.

But go ahead and attempt to bash neocon, sjt, mur and me, we are all man enough to defend ourselves from your silly accusations.
 
#136
#136
gsvol said:
You know I've never said that but go ahead and try to twist my words to perpetuate your own ignorance.
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The first part you have definitely said. The wording may have been different but it shows in every one of your posts. The way you can relate anything wrong with this world to Islam is indefensible.
 
#139
#139
trevols81 said:
The first part you have definitely said. The wording may have been different but it shows in every one of your posts. The way you can relate anything wrong with this world to Islam is indefensible.
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I'm not sure what you are talking about.

I scrolled back through your post and don't find the 'first part' to which you refer.

Perhaps you would like to clarify your postition?

The history of islam is the only thing that is indefensible in the equation.

Your post is so muddled that I find it hard to understand just what your criticism of me happens to be.

That my opinion doesn't fit the PC mold, I freely admit but I am right not to be contained in that box.

Neither should you if you want to have an intelligent, informed discussion on the topic of our lack of knowledge of the history of islam.
 
#140
#140
Pre-Crusades Islam = scientific discoveries out the wazoo.

Crusades and Post-Crusades Islam = violence.

I'm up for hating all religions, but I like to play devil's advocate if someone is incredibly biased, as in the case with you, gs.
 
#141
#141
PKT_VOL said:
Out of sheer curiosity, do you mind posting said argument?
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God loves an inquisitive mind.

Here is a start:

http://www.amazon.com/Holy-Warriors-Demise-Classical-Civilization/product-reviews/0980994896

If O'Neill is right, virtually everything we're being told about the histories of Christianity and Islam is a load of hokum. Much of what he says reinforces the work of Henri Pirenne in the 1930s, who was first to point out that Classical Civilization survived the fall of Rome, only to be finally destroyed by Islam in the seventh century.

.... all this was destroyed when the Muslims launched their total and unending "holy war" against the rest of the world in the seventh century. The Mediterranean, which had until that time been the world's main artery of trade, now became a hunting-ground of pirates and slave-traders. Papyrus, the essential commodity of a literate and mercantile culture, became unavailable in Europe, which had to turn to the vastly expensive parchment. The great cities of the Empire, which had flourished until the start of the seventh century, and which depended upon the sea-going trade with the Eastern Mediterranean, now bagn to die. O'Neill agrees with Pirenne on the major points, but goes much further. The Muslims, says O'Neill, not only impoverished the West, they also communicated many of their values to Christendom - values which included "holy war", slave-trading, etc.

If the Eastern Empire had not been impoverished and primitivized by contact with Islam, why then did the West? This was a criticism Pirenne could not answer. But, as O'Neill shows, recent archeological findings have given the lie to this viewpoint. Byzantium was devastated by the Muslims just as much as the West. It had its own dark age, and Classical Civilization was terminated there in the seventh century just as much as in Western Europe - and just as much as in Egypt, North Africa, Syria, and Mesopotamia.

O'Neill also makes a quite sensational claim at the end, in which he discusses the possibility that the chronology of the Early Middle Ages might be seriously wrong, and that the Crusades, for example, were not an aggressive act against a quiet and peaceful Muslim world, but a defensive measure against a still aggressive and expanding Islam.
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#142
#142
VOLatile said:
Pre-Crusades Islam = scientific discoveries out the wazoo.

Crusades and Post-Crusades Islam = violence.

I'm up for hating all religions, but I like to play devil's advocate if someone is incredibly biased, as in the case with you, gs.
Click to expand...

no-dog-****.gif


I've read some totally stupid/ignorant posts before but your last takes the cake.

Nomination for the Volantion 'most ignorant post of the decade' award.
 
#145
#145
gsvol said:
A good argument has been made that the dark ages were brought on by the advance of militant islam.
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Dark Ages is an historical classification; the term is most widely used to refer to the period from the 5th Century through to the 15th Century and the Renaissance and Early Enlightenment periods.

If, according to a wide range of scholars, the Dark Ages began in the 5th Century, then how did militant Islam bring this about, since Muhammad was not even born until the late 6th Century?
 
#147
#147
therealUT said:
Dark Ages is an historical classification; the term is most widely used to refer to the period from the 5th Century through to the 15th Century and the Renaissance and Early Enlightenment periods.

If, according to a wide range of scholars, the Dark Ages began in the 5th Century, then how did militant Islam bring this about, since Muhammad was not even born until the late 6th Century?
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Too much sense in one post for him to take.
 
#148
#148
therealUT said:
Dark Ages is an historical classification; the term is most widely used to refer to the period from the 5th Century through to the 15th Century and the Renaissance and Early Enlightenment periods.

If, according to a wide range of scholars, the Dark Ages began in the 5th Century, then how did militant Islam bring this about, since Muhammad was not even born until the late 6th Century?
Click to expand...

Islam - The Real Cause of the Dark Ages

The beginning of the Dark Ages are usually dated to the deposition of the last Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustulus, in 476 AD. It is widely held that following this event Europe was plunged into the Dark Ages by the combination of the Germanic invasions and the spread of Christianity. Many documentaries and books depict barbaric hordes of German Goths, Vandals and Other tribes descending on the Roman provinces in the 400 and 500’s AD and destroying the high culture of the Mediterranean Basin. This disaster was supposedly supplemented by the spread of a backward, superstition ridden Christianity. Early Christians are usually depicted as not only backward and superstitious but also devoted to ignorant, anti-intellectual blind faith and according to this received version of history the combination of these two cultural calamities plunged Europe into ten centuries of chaos which destroyed classical learning and economic prosperity.

This is the anti-Christian picture that was popularized by Edward Gibbon in 1776 with his publication of the very widely read “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.” It was a theme picked up by many who followed and is still prominent today.

If you believe this scenario you should definitely read “Mohammed and Charlemagne” by Henri Pirenne, after you read this book you will realize that the above is an extremely inaccurate picture of what actually happened.

Pirenne was a leading medieval scholar of the early Twentieth Century. He published “Mohammed and Charlemagne” in 1937 long before the current chaos in the Middle East. His ideas were widely accepted among the academics of his time but unfortunately have been largely forgotten or ignored of late. The basic argument of the book is simple; the Fall of the Roman Empire is normally dated to 476 AD when the last Western Roman Emperor was deposed by the Odoacer the leader of Germanic Foederati. In the aftermath of this action German Tribes moved into Italy and other Roman provinces and established a series of Gothic Kingdoms.

The current view is that Europe then plunged directly into the Dark Ages. However when Pirenne examined everyday life inside the provinces of the former Roman Empire following the Germanic invasions he found that little changed. The aqueducts and sanitation systems continued to work, the schools remained open, taxes were collected, the road system was maintained, foreign trade was abundant, money was coined and the standard of living remained high. His detailed examination of the period’s records shows very clearly that life continued virtually unchanged for the next 250 years.

This is no surprise, as it must be remembered that the German invaders had no desire to destroy the Roman Empire, their objective was to live in it and enjoy the fruits of its higher standard of living. While the Germans did initially engage in taking of booty and pillage they nevertheless soon settled down and adopted the Roman way of life. They adopted Roman agricultural practices, Roman law, Christianity and in most areas Romance languages.

The Coming of the Dark Ages

However when we get to the early 700’s AD life begins to change drastically: coinage disappears, artisans are forced to give up their trades and go back to living on the land, books disappear, schools close, the roads and aqueducts and other infrastructure are no longer maintained and the standard of living throughout the Roman world begins to decline sharply.

What happened? The answer is quite simple. This was when the Islamic armies began their war against the West. Starting in the late 600’s AD these armies invaded Egypt, North Africa and the old Fertile Crescent area. With them they not only brought Islam they also brought practices, which resulted in economic catastrophe for the entire region from which it has never recovered even to this day.

Roman, Egyptian and Persian agricultural practices were destroyed in most of the conquered territories. As a result food production plummeted and ancient agribusiness was replaced by subsistence farming. Cities were abandoned as their inhabitants were forced back on to the land in order to avoid starvation. The Fertile Crescent area of Iraq and Iran suffered particularly harshly as the loss of the old technology, especially well planned irrigation works, resulted in the use of crude methods of irrigation, which led to the contamination of the Tigris – Euphrates Basin through salt percolation and turned it into the barren desert seen today.

The other economic killer was the Islamic destruction of the old overland trading system. In the ancient world there had been large scale foreign trade extending from China to Britain. The Islamic refusal to deal with the “Infidels” led to the decline of this trade and the destruction of the second most important component of the ancient economy: trade with India, China, Persia, Egypt and the other advanced economic centers of the ancient world. This trade did not recover until the Age of Exploration when Europeans discovered how to sail around the Islamic barrier to foreign trade.

Why is this Important?

The Dark Ages were an enormous setback for European civilization. Today most of the world believes that Christianity shares a great deal of the blame for causing this disaster, even going so far as to compare it unfavorably in a revisionist version of history which depicts Islam as the savior of ancient western knowledge.

This revisionist version of history is far from the truth, if you doubt it I challenge you to read “Mohammed and Charlemagne.”
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O'Neil's work (to which I linked), underscores and carries Pirenne's work even further.
 
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