Hall Of Fame...

#76
#76
Vercingetorix said:
If we're going to decide that 70-inning-a-year pitchers are HOF-worthy because someone invented the "save" and therefore the "closer," then I don't see how Smith isn't one of the first ones in. He basically defined that role.
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What about Hoffman?
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#77
#77
NYYVol said:
What about Hoffman?
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In general, I think it's stupid to put 70-inning pitchers in the HOF to begin with. I'd put Rivera in, but only because of what he did in the playoffs. Other than that, I wouldn't put any of them in. I just don't think you can compile enough value in only 70 innings a season to warrant HOF inclusion. Do we really want to live in a world in which John Franco has a plaque in the Hall of Fame?

But if we're going to have them in -- and given the modern obsession with the mystique of the closer, I'd say it's inevitable -- then yeah, Hoffman's got to be in. If I have to grit my teeth and put closers in there, then Hoffman, Rivera, and Lee Smith are the only modern one-inning closers I'd pick.
 
#78
#78
I think you have to include closers in the HOF......Rivera and Hoffman should(and in my opinion will) get put in the HOF. Closets are relatively important, especially in the playoffs. I think Petitte had 67 or so of his wins saved by Rivera. The biggest question is what is the "magic number" of saves IOT to get inducted
 
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#80
#80
Vercingetorix said:
In general, I think it's stupid to put 70-inning pitchers in the HOF to begin with. I'd put Rivera in, but only because of what he did in the playoffs. Other than that, I wouldn't put any of them in. I just don't think you can compile enough value in only 70 innings a season to warrant HOF inclusion. Do we really want to live in a world in which John Franco has a plaque in the Hall of Fame?

But if we're going to have them in -- and given the modern obsession with the mystique of the closer, I'd say it's inevitable -- then yeah, Hoffman's got to be in. If I have to grit my teeth and put closers in there, then Hoffman, Rivera, and Lee Smith are the only modern one-inning closers I'd pick.
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I agree. I think Rivera gets it because when I think of dominance on the mound he's one of the first that comes to mind. I think by him getting in, Hoffman has to get in. He's another one that has built big numbers as a result of playing forever, but when you have numbers that no one else in baseball has ever had; it's almost by default you get in.
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#81
#81
Vercingetorix said:
And as far as leaning over the plate with an elbow up goes, I always thought the single biggest factor in the magical resurgence of Barry Bonds was the body armor that baseball inexplicably let him get away with wearing rather than the steroids. He stood right on top of home plate with that shiat on, and as a pitcher you had no choice but to hit him, walk him, or throw it in his wheelhouse. There was literally nowhere left to go with the ball where you could get him out. I don't know why A) NL pitchers didn't at some point decide to throw at him every single time he came to the plate until he took it off, and B) why every single major-league batter didn't immediately follow suit when it became obvious that there weren't going to be any repercussions. Why does anybody hit without body armor on now? Why are you standing way over there in the batter's box when you could be fearlessly right up on the plate like Barry? The whole thing was inexplicable.
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I blame that on a bunch of pansy assed pitchers. baseball has always been able to police itself in the past. A few balls around the neck and knee caps could have sent a blaring message. Take the body armor off or risk getting coloring books for Christmas the rest of your life.
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#82
#82
Vercingetorix said:
Thanks. I like all the same guys you guys like, pretty much. I tend to heavily favor players with stretches of real greatness; I don't care too much what their career totals end up being. To me, a guy is either a HOF-quality player or not; the numbers he compiles in his late 30s don't mean much. A HOF case should be made or not in a players prime, not his decline.

Example: Everybody in the media at this point seems to consider Chipper Jones a lock. MVP, one of the two or three best switch-hitters in history, etc. etc. Well, I've watched at least of some of the vast majority of the games he's played in his career, and I'd vote no. Jones has been a very, very good player for a long time, but I don't know that he's ever risen to the level of being a great player. I'd vote for Dale Murphy over Chipper Jones.

Counterexample: Fernando Valenzuela should be in. I don't care that he was great for only five years and then mediocre for another 12. Those five years were a hell of a lot greater than anything Bert Blyleven ever had.
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I was debating about Chipper's HOF argument with a friend. So I looked some stats up. Here's something I found out.

He's one of five players in MLB HISTORY to have a
.300/25/100 for six consecutive seasons (1997-2002).

The other four?

Ruth
Gehrig
Teddy Ballgame
Manny Ramirez.

And doing at 3B, while a switch-hitter, with a career .400 OBP? Easy HOF. Of course I'm biased though.

Also, Dale Murphy was arguably the best player in the early 80's for five solid years, and still had a decent career after that. He deserves it.

Also Jack Morris, a great big game player.
 
#83
#83
Yankee_Vol said:
Yogi Berra
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Great defender, clutch player. Hit 20-25 homers, 90-110 RBI's, with a solid enough average and good OBP for a catcher (.350 career). He's right up there with Bench and Pudge.
 
#85
#85
NYYVol said:
I agree. I think Rivera gets it because when I think of dominance on the mound he's one of the first that comes to mind. I think by him getting in, Hoffman has to get in. He's another one that has built big numbers as a result of playing forever, but when you have numbers that no one else in baseball has ever had; it's almost by default you get in.
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Rivera earned his reputation in the postseason; Hoffman saved two games in the postseason. They're not really comparable. If Rivera didn't have the gaudy postseason numbers, I wouldn't want him in either.

My attitude about 70 inning pitchers is based on watching John Smoltz go from dominant starter to dominant closer and back again. He was great in the bullpen, but it was fairly astonishing how much less valuable he was in that role. Guys like Russ Ortiz became more important in determining the team's fortunes. Same great pitcher, same salary, but much less valuable because of the role.

So ultimately, it's hard for me to really believe that closers like Hoffman -- even great ones -- are fully qualified to be Hall of Famers when every year of his career, there were four pitchers on the same staff who were more important in determining whether his team made the playoffs.
 
#86
#86
It depends on the team how valuable closers can be.

Look at the Giants. They play so many close games because their offense is not very good. You can make the case after Posey, Lincecum, and Cain that Wilson was their most valuable player. They needed a guy to shut the door. Look in the NLDS. If the Braves had Bill Wagner, they win that series.
 
#87
#87
NYYVol said:
There was a stretch there where that guy was borderline untouchable. He's proof that a well placed fastball and a changeup are the best combo in baseball.
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Agreed, and he also never hesitated to throw it right at your head if he needed too...
 
#88
#88
VOLinthaATL said:
Agreed, and he also never hesitated to throw it right at your head if he needed too...
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Which makes him even more effective. Nothing scarier as a hitter knowing the dude 60'6'' away could knock a hair off a gnat's ass when he buzzes your tower.
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#90
#90
zjcvols said:
It depends on the team how valuable closers can be.

Look at the Giants. They play so many close games because their offense is not very good. You can make the case after Posey, Lincecum, and Cain that Wilson was their most valuable player. They needed a guy to shut the door. Look in the NLDS. If the Braves had Bill Wagner, they win that series.
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Most good relief pitchers can shut the door. The difference between John Smoltz and somebody like Kerry Ligtenberg in the closer's spot is way smaller than the difference between John Smoltz and somebody like Paul Byrd in the rotation.

Go back and look at, say, the Braves' 2004 season. If Smoltz the closer had gotten hurt and missed most of the year, the Braves probably still win the division. If Russ Ortiz or Jared Wright had gotten hurt, they probably don't. I just can't take seriously any pitching role which makes John Smoltz of even questionably less value than Russ Ortiz.
 
#94
#94
Vercingetorix said:
Most good relief pitchers can shut the door. The difference between John Smoltz and somebody like Kerry Ligtenberg in the closer's spot is way smaller than the difference between John Smoltz and somebody like Paul Byrd in the rotation.

Go back and look at, say, the Braves' 2004 season. If Smoltz the closer had gotten hurt and missed most of the year, the Braves probably still win the division. If Russ Ortiz or Jared Wright had gotten hurt, they probably don't. I just can't take seriously any pitching role which makes John Smoltz of even questionably less value than Russ Ortiz.
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Understand your point of view. I think closers are overrated in some aspect.
 
#96
#96
VOLinthaATL said:
BTW, I am drinking some SweetWater Happy Ending. It's a must try...especially if you like Guinness...

You've prolly had it but if not...go buy some...
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It's fantastic stuff, isn't it? I lost a six-pack of the winner's choice to a UNC fan over the bowl game, and when he picked his sixer, he picked Happy Ending, and so when it was time to pay up, I bought two six-packs instead of just one............and holy crap, I just remembered that the other one is still sitting out in my garage, untouched, and I'd totally forgotten about it. Wow.

I will be cracking one open in about 30 seconds. I'm glad you brought it up.

:hi:
 
#98
#98
zjcvols said:
+ confirmed steroid user= no chance.
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I don't know. Pettitte was the only confirmed steroid user to this point who has copped to it in a direct, manly way. I think that'll work in his favor. Unless some sort of Absolutely No Juicers Whatsoever consensus arises, and you certainly don't see any evidence that that's coming, then eventually some of these guys will get in.

Not that Pettitte DESERVES to get in, of course. But at that point the Confirmed User stigma will be offset by the Manned Up Manfully factor, and we'll be back to just Yankee factor + veterans committee = HOF. Eventually.
 
#99
#99
Vercingetorix said:
I don't know. Pettitte was the only confirmed steroid user to this point who has copped to it in a direct, manly way. I think that'll work in his favor. Unless some sort of Absolutely No Juicers Whatsoever consensus arises, and you certainly don't see any evidence that that's coming, then eventually some of these guys will get in.

Not that Pettitte DESERVES to get in, of course. But at that point the Confirmed User stigma will be offset by the Manned Up Manfully factor, and we'll be back to just Yankee factor + veterans committee = HOF. Eventually.
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Well said.

Almost like the guy who said good pitching beats good hitting every time as proved by the World Series Champion this year! :)
 
#100
#100
VOLinthaATL said:
It delicious, and you start feeling good after about 2...
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I drank a whole sixer of it either last year or the year before before I figured out it was 9 percent. I wanted to die the next day.

I can't believe I completely forgot about the six pack I owned of it. I paid off my debt on a night that we were hosting a big party, so I stuck the six pack I'd bought for myself way off in an obscure corner of the garage so nobody else would drink it while I wasn't looking.....and I forgot about it. Man. Of course, at this point, it's like finding a free six pack of fantastic beer in the garage. Beautiful. I just wish they made this stuff year round.
 
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