Hardnosed political discussion . . .

#251
#251
Very true - my complaint with them is just the way they go about everything. Givend the circumstances that have been put in place I don't think that many other candidates would have done a whole lot better with the cards the Bush admin. has been dealt. Iraq was there own doing but 9/11 and Katrina/Rita and all that have actully hampered them quite a bit. I am not defending by any means - i did not vote for Bush and would not vote for him if he were able to run agian - but I don't fault the admin for all the problems that have risen lately - but I do place blame in the way they handle those problems.
 
#252
#252
(VOLracerx @ May 5 said:
Very true - my complaint with them is just the way they go about everything. Givend the circumstances that have been put in place I don't think that many other candidates would have done a whole lot better with the cards the Bush admin. has been dealt. Iraq was there own doing but 9/11 and Katrina/Rita and all that have actully hampered them quite a bit. I am not defending by any means - i did not vote for Bush and would not vote for him if he were able to run agian - but I don't fault the admin for all the problems that have risen lately - but I do place blame in the way they handle those problems.
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I hear ya. I do think this administration has been heavy-handed with foreign policy but in part I think that was somewhat necessary because the previous administration was too light-handed.

 
#253
#253
It would be nice to have a balance of power toward the middle.

I wanted to start a discussion about the Monroe Doctrine and does it still apply to current times?

Monroe Doctine

Communism is gaining a foothold in South America. China is buying all the industry it can. Should we step in?

Consider:

For the past six years, President Hugo Chavez — a self-proclaimed Communist and boon companion of Fidel — has been tightening the vise of dictatorship on Venezuela, the region's key oil-producing country (and the source of much of our imported fuel).

Next door in Brazil, Latin America's largest, most populous nation, President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva is also consolidating a Marxist regime.

In Argentina, President Nestor Kirchner reversed 15 years of Argentine policy by re-establishing ties with Cuba and cozying up to Castro and Hugo Chavez.

In Ecuador, radical Castro-Chavez protégé Lucio Gutierrez is now in control.
Much of Colombia is controlled by FARC, the Communist narco-terrorists who have been waging a murderous terrorist war for 40 years.

United Nations "peacekeepers" occupy Haiti, and that disaster-ridden island may soon see the return of ousted Marxist madman Jean-Bertrand Aristide.
Riots in Bolivia caused President Lozada to resign in 2003, and the current president, Carlos Mesa, may soon be replaced by Evo Morales, "indigenous" activist and leader of the Movement Toward Socialism (MAS) party. In the December 2004 local elections, Morales' MAS candidates won many of the city and provincial races.

The Communist Sandinistas have swept back into power in Nicaragua, taking many of the local offices in the November 2004 elections.
 
#254
#254
Resurgence of Communism in Eastern Europe...

The communist specter is making a reappearance in Central and Eastern Europe. In some cases, as in Belarus, the old communist establishment never left power. In other Soviet bloc nations, such as Lithuania, Hungary, Bulgaria, Slovakia, and Poland, the communists have returned to power. Most important is the Russian Federation, where a regrouped Communist Party under new leadership made dramatic gains in the December 1995 parliamentary elections and is positioned to make a strong showing in the upcoming presidential elections. Only in the Czech Republic, Latvia, and Estonia have communists, former communists, and statist-minded bureaucrats been eclipsed.

The explanation of the communist renaissance and its implications for the West are neither simple nor one-dimensional. Despite alarm in some quarters, we are not returning to 1917 or 1945. But the earlier hopes for a smooth transition from Marxist police state to democratic capitalism have proved premature, indeed, naive.

Three important lessons need to be absorbed. First, the nations, such as the Czech Republic and Estonia, that have pursued the most rapid and radical economic reform programs have been the least vulnerable to a neocommunist backlash. Timidity and gradualism in other countries have proven counterproductive. Second, most of the resurgent "communist" parties have little desire or ability to restore dictatorships or seek a confrontation with the West. There is, therefore, no need for Washington to panic and institute a Cold War-style containment policy. Finally, although America cannot dictate political and economic outcomes in Central and Eastern Europe, it ought to encourage reform and discourage retrograde trends by refusing to bail out anti-reform regimes with foreign aid.

 
#255
#255
I haven't had time to fully digest the Monroe Doctrine but it seems one difference between using it as in the past and in the current situation in South America is the source of the communist/socialist movement.

I assume the fight against the spread of communism during cold war was an argument that the USSR and possibly China were "defacto colonizing" through communism.

What's happening in South America (alarming as it is) seems more organic/home grown thus less subject to interference via the Monroe Doctrine.
 
#256
#256
South America would be a nice terrorist staging area/military staging area if one wanted to strike at the United States.

T.R. used the doctrine liberally taking over the canal zone from Panama.
 
#257
#257
Well, if we took over all of Central and South America, it would solve a big part of our immigration problem :p
 
#258
#258
Then we would be a giant welfare state!

Then we could not complain about France. :p

Do you think in the future, Iraq will set the precedent for going into other countries and establishing democracies/military bases to thwart out these threats?

Let’s say Iraq is a semi/permanent military station.

How about Venezuela? Yes I am using this as an example because of their oil reserves.
 
#259
#259
(OrangeEmpire @ May 5 said:
Then we would be a giant welfare state!

Then we could not complain about France. :p

Do you think in the future, Iraq will set the precedent for going into other countries and establishing democracies/military bases to thwart out these threats?

Let’s say Iraq is a semi/permanent military station.

How about Venezuela? Yes I am using this as an example because of their oil reserves.
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I think Iraq was a unique and one-time deal. I think it was a combination of Saddam and his unpredicability (e.g. taking over Kuwait) and pursuit of WMD, a referendum on the UN, an attempt to stabilize the middle east due to both oil and terrorism, etc. In short, Iraq was/is a nexus of so many geo-political issues that no matter what solution was implemented -- it would be messy, controversial and incomplete.
 
#260
#260
Do you think there are similarities between post World War II Germany and Iraq?

Do you think it is fair to call them similar?
 
#261
#261
I think there are similarities with regard to the fact that in both cases, it is unrealistic to expect that a stable and self securing government to emerge in a short-time (e.g. 1 - 3 years).

I think there are similarities in that you have competing forces outside the country (forces pushing for democracy (U.S. and others) and forces pushing for the old way (Iran and others).

Otherwise, there are plenty of differences.
 
#264
#264
(volinbham @ May 5 said:
I think Iraq was a unique and one-time deal. I think it was a combination of Saddam and his unpredicability (e.g. taking over Kuwait) and pursuit of WMD, a referendum on the UN, an attempt to stabilize the middle east due to both oil and terrorism, etc. In short, Iraq was/is a nexus of so many geo-political issues that no matter what solution was implemented -- it would be messy, controversial and incomplete.
Click to expand...

I understand your take on this, and on it's face it seems completely logical.

In the end though nation building is virtually always what you wrote at the end of your comment...
 
#265
#265
(orange+white=heaven @ May 5 said:
I understand your take on this, and on it's face it seems completely logical.

In the end though nation building is virtually always what you wrote at the end of your comment...
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I don't disagree but would add that any conceivable solution to Iraq would qualify for those comments as well.
 
#266
#266
(volinbham @ May 5 said:
I don't disagree but would add that any conceivable solution to Iraq would qualify for those comments as well.
Click to expand...

I am in no way well versed on this subject matter. I have however always held to the idea that when one starts using words like "solution" in regards to places like Iraq or the Middle East, then one has already taken the first step in what will be a foolhearty and disappointing journey.

Thousands of years of history seem to tell me at least, that they relish turmoil.

 
#267
#267
(orange+white=heaven @ May 5 said:
I am in no way well versed on this subject matter. I have however always held to the idea that when one starts using words like "solution" in regards to places like Iraq or the Middle East, then one has already taken the first step in what will be a foolhearty and disappointing journey.

Thousands of years of history seem to tell me at least, that they relish turmoil.
Click to expand...

Agreed but back to my original response about why Venezuela won't be the same, the problem requiring a "solution" was/is much bigger than Iraq.
 
#268
#268
I guess I'm a little murky on your Venezuela position.
Wouldn't be the same and therefore would Not work,
or wouldn't be the same and therefore would?

Color me confused here...

 
#269
#269
(orange+white=heaven @ May 5 said:
I guess I'm a little murky on your Venezuela position.
Wouldn't be the same and therefore would Not work,
or wouldn't be the same and therefore would?

Color me confused here...
Click to expand...

Orange Empire asked if the US might use the Iraq approach on other countries (ie. Venezuela). I was just speculating on why I thought we would not and why I think Iraq was a unique situation.

To use your terms above - wouldn't be the same and shouldn't be done (whether it would work or not).
 
#270
#270
(volinbham @ May 5 said:
Orange Empire asked if the US might use the Iraq approach on other countries (ie. Venezuela). I was just speculating on why I thought we would not and why I think Iraq was a unique situation.

To use your terms above - wouldn't be the same and shouldn't be done (whether it would work or not).
Click to expand...

Fair enough.
...and so comes clarity. :D
 
#275
#275
the cherokee tribe were the real americans, like all the indians. mexicans are illegal, the indians were already here. the cherokee know how america works, how the rich get richer and the poor get destroyed. bad subject with me. my great grandmother was cherokee and she never trusted the government. things haven't changed much in america since then, if you have enough money you can get away with anything. you can even buy the presidency.
 
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