Hardnosed political discussion . . .

[smokedog#3]

did you guys hear colin powell rip into condi rice yesterday. i like colin powell he is the only one out of the whole administration i have any respect for. i would say he is a good republican. atleast he is honest when he says himself and the american people were misled.

 

[volinbham]

see the difference between your post and mine...

Mine were funny, and true.

I hope you're still joking here - it's scary how many people say those same things as if they ARE true.

 

[therealUT]

Right, our government cares more about illegals than its own citizens...

Some Benefits for Citizens:
Minimum Wage
Social Security (for those people who apparently do not know nor care to learn about trading stocks, bonds, mutual funds, and, well, commodities smoke)
Mandated Full Time Benefits
The opportunity to have a portion of your income taxes paid, refunded (although I still completely disagree with the whole notion of an income tax)
And, my favorite, Welfare for all the people who are too lazy to get a job. Maybe, MTV should sign P Diddy up for a Work or Die Campaign...

 

[smokedog#3]

welfare and foodstamps to illegals, we pay for all there hospital bills. they don't pay taxes, and if they commit any crimes they just get deported. not to mention 80% of americans want them to go back to wherever they came from. still our great american government won't do anything.

 

[smokedog#3]

well with W you never know :biggrin2:

 

[volinbham]

Relax -- it's a joke

You might be a liberal if …

You think that if someone is getting richer, someone, somewhere, must be getting poorer.

You think that protestors outside nuclear power plants are dedicated activists, but protestors outside abortion clinics are dangerous zealots interfering with a legal activity.

You believe that more federal regulations will make your life better.

You believe that even though the top 20 percent of taxpayers pay 80 percent of income taxes, that the rich are not paying their “fair share.”

You think that Rush Limbaugh’s listeners are mindless “dittoheads,” but you have never doubted anything that you heard from Michael Moore.

You believe in global warming today just as firmly as you believed in global cooling back in the 1970s.

You believe that the network news is a better indicator of what “real” news is than talk radio, Internet news sites, and blogs.

You believe that there was never, ever a problem with biased news coverage until Fox News went on the air.

You believe that Mikhail Gorbachev deserves more credit for losing the Cold War than Ronald Reagan deserves for winning it.

Your parents gave you an acre of preserved rain forest for your first birthday.

You cannot name a single NASCAR driver.

You mentally subtract 100 points from someone’s IQ if the person speaks with a Southern accent.

You think that Dan Rather got a raw deal.

You panic if you discover that you’re out of chick peas.

You think that the phrase “separation of church and state” is in the Constitution.

You pride yourself on your global awareness, global sensitivity and global outlook, but can’t name your state legislator or school board representative.

You are dedicated to helping the poor, the downtrodden and the less fortunate, but you have never given blood.

You have not seen "The Passion of the Christ," and you don’t know anyone who has seen it.

You believe that a woman should make it on her own, without depending on her husband (except for Hillary Clinton).

You believe that professional, working women should never be judged on their appearance (except for Katherine Harris).

You believe that rich people should not be allowed to contribute so much money to candidates for office (except for George Soros).

You believe that government should make a special effort to hire members of traditionally oppressed groups, such as African-Americans (except for Clarence Thomas, Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice).

You feel a deep sense of common cause with oppressed groups, such as Hispanic immigrants (except for Cuban Americans fleeing Castro).

You believe that a mother’s wishes for her child, especially a mother’s last, dying wish for her child, should outweigh the wishes of a father who had long before deserted his family (unless the child is named Elian Gonzalez).

You think people in south Florida, who can’t figure out how to work a butterfly ballot, ought to have the final say in choosing the president of the United States.

You have no problem with Hollywood movie starts flying around in private jets to give speeches on the evils of SUVs.

You think that raising taxes will reduce the budget deficit.

You deplore prejudice and bigotry in all its forms, but think that everyone in the “red states” is an idiot.

You are more concerned, more often, with the rights of convicted felons than you are with the rights of small business owners.

You uphold a woman’s right to choose, unless a woman chooses adoption, chooses to be a stay-at-home mom, chooses to homeschool, or chooses to start a business.

You are more concerned with Vice President Cheney’s links to Halliburton than with Saddam Hussein’s links to international terrorism.

You have used the phrase, “in Europe, the government pays for health care and vacation,” without irony.

You are worried about how the French view Americans.

You believe that nativity scenes should be banned from public view, but that anyone objecting to pornography “only has to look the other way.”

And finally, you are almost certainly a liberal if you refuse to admit that you’re a liberal, and accuse anyone of calling you a liberal of McCarthyism.

 

[therealUT]

welfare and foodstamps to illegals, 1. we pay for all there hospital bills. 2. they don't pay taxes, and if they commit any crimes they just get deported. 3.not to mention 80% of americans want them to go back to wherever they came from. still our great american government won't do anything.

1. Wrong! The only bills that are paid by the state for any person without insurance (Medicare and Medicaid included,) are for urgent care. According to Health Department Officials, "The number of immigrants we treat is nothing to the level of U.S. citizens we treat who are indigent. It's just a very small minority--a gray area."

2. Wrong! Not only do they pay taxes, but they pay over $1,800 per year into Social Security and Medicare (of whose benefits they will never receive.) This is according to the Center for Immigration Studies.

3. Who cares what 80% of Americans want...Until the sixties, you could argue that 80% of Americans did not to grant African Americans any Civil Rights. That does not make it right.

 

[smokedog#3]

1 wrong seen it first hand at good samaritan hospital in mesa arizona, you forget my wife is a nurse. no matter what they come in for it has to be treated and then they turn poor americans back to the street because they don't have insurance. you are really wrong on this one.

2 wrong seen this first hand builders pay illegals under the table for a contractors job they do. happens at almost every building company in arizona, take a ride down close to the border, they come over set up taco stands and by the end of the night they are mexicans again. again you are misinformed.

3 the republicans must because they are afraid of getting voted out of office.

 

[OldVol]

This issue is a very well defined, simple issue.

I was watching a news program today where a large group of Mexicans who came here through legal channels are appalled by the behavior of these criminals. They well should be.

For our government to turn their heads at all law-breaking on such a grand scale is preposterous. As a nation of laws we are compelled, as law loving citizens, to cry out against this illegal behavior.

For our government to consider amnesty for this huge block of criminals is disgraceful and it is an insult to all of the great Mexican people who have come here legally and who have made good neighbors, good employees and good friends. It is also a slap in the face to the memory of many of our ancestors who came to this country legally who worked, built, and fought and died for America.

The American businessmen who are the foundation of this scourge are just as guilty as the criminal invaders. Americans who are hiring illegal immigrants should be fined to such an extent on their first offense that there will never be a second, and if there is a second offense, jail time should be mandatory.

The influx of illegal workers is destroying the lower middle class of America. If something is not done soon, there will be no lower middle class. Poverty in America will become rampant, at least the numbers living below the poverty level, because the illegals are driving down the wage index and shrinking the available pool of jobs to support the lower middle class.

America is swiftly moving to a 3 class society: The Upper Class, the Upper Middle Class, and the Lower Class. The Lower Middle Class is disappearing and that is a crime in itself.

The next generation of Americans who do not get a college degree will live in poverty because of this problem. It is a disgrace and it is laid directly at the feet of dishonest American businessmen and dishonest, unpatriotic politicians.

 

[smokedog#3]

i couldn't agree with you more oldvol. well said.

 

[therealUT]

1 wrong seen it first hand at good samaritan hospital in mesa arizona, you forget my wife is a nurse. no matter what they come in for it has to be treated and then they turn poor americans back to the street because they don't have insurance. you are really wrong on this one.

2 wrong seen this first hand builders pay illegals under the table for a contractors job they do. happens at almost every building company in arizona, take a ride down close to the border, they come over set up taco stands and by the end of the night they are mexicans again. again you are misinformed.

3 the republicans must because they are afraid of getting voted out of office.

1. Only emergency room and urgent care centers are obliged to see all patients that come in, whether they are citizens or not. I am not going to take your word for it, I am going to take the word of a spokesman for the Department of Healthcare Policy and Financing. Much more credible in my eyes. If your wife's hospital is admitting people, it is not federally mandated (might be mandated by the state.) If it was mandated by the state, I can almost guarantee you it was at the time of a liberally controlled state congress.

2. I must have forgotten something fundamentally important to this discussion...private contractors have larger payrolls than corporations...That was sarcasm Smoke. Corporate America provides the most non-government jobs in America, and therefore, that is what I am going to address. The illegals that work for corporations pay payroll taxes just like anybody else. And, apparently, that offsets the minority who build in Mesa, because, well there is still an $1,800 balance per illegal immigrant that goes solely to Social Security and Medicare.

 

[OldVol]

OK . . . We'll try this again.

The rules are: 1) As always, no namecalling or personal attacks. 2) Don't say something stupid and expect not to get nailed for it . . . .

Maybe you need to add a #3, no insulting rhetoric.

Only mature adults can discuss politics and religion without it getting nasty.

There's always someone who makes insulting, nasty comments then hide behind more rhetoric like, 'it was meant to be funny' or 'I was just kidding.'

Then, the joke leads to another nasty joke, then the nasty joke leads to out and out insults.

It's sort of like the two old codgers on the Andy Griffith show who were always sitting out in front of the Court House playing checkers. One would say, "Now you best not start callin' me any names, becaus I'll have to call you some too."

Mature folks can rise above this.

Sadly, there areso few people who can discuss the issues based on their merits without resorting to the above.

 

[smokedog#3]

even your government don't know how many illegals are in the USA and you can honestly say there are more working for corporations and paying taxes than ones who don't. i'll leave that subject there because if you honestly believe that then tell me when dorthy from the wizard of oz lands in kansas. have you ever been to urgent care champ. you can go there for any reason, on this issue i'm sure you are wrong 100%. i try to see your view point on some, but you are wrong on this one. in arizona by the way the GOV is a democrat the state and senate reps are republicans along with the city representitives ( of phoenix ). i have a feeling after this election that will change somewhat.

 

[therealUT]

This issue is a very well defined, simple issue.

For our government to consider amnesty for this huge block of criminals is disgraceful and it is an insult to all of the great Mexican people who have come here legally and who have made good neighbors, good employees and good friends. It is also a slap in the face to the memory of many of our ancestors who came to this country legally who worked, built, and fought and died for America.

The American businessmen who are the foundation of this scourge are just as guilty as the criminal invaders. Americans who are hiring illegal immigrants should be fined to such an extent on their first offense that there will never be a second, and if there is a second offense, jail time should be mandatory.

The influx of illegal workers is destroying the lower middle class of America. If something is not done soon, there will be no lower middle class. Poverty in America will become rampant, at least the numbers living below the poverty level, because the illegals are driving down the wage index and shrinking the available pool of jobs to support the lower middle class.

The next generation of Americans who do not get a college degree will live in poverty because of this problem. It is a disgrace and it is laid directly at the feet of dishonest American businessmen and dishonest, unpatriotic politicians.

I don't know about you, but my ancestors came here illegally from Ireland. Also, pretty much everyone of Italian descent in America has ancestors that were WOPs (With Out Papers) who most definitely came to America illegally. If you are of German descent, your ancestors probably came over as Hessian soldiers, and therefore illegally as enemies of the Continental Army. So, basically, the only people who have a legitimate claim to their family's citizenship over the past 100-200 years, are people of English descent, African Americans, and Native Americans. Good thing the U.S. didn't deport us, or there would have never been a railroad.

You talk about destroying the middle class and evil businessmen as if you have never had a business or economics lesson in your life. I will provide the briefest of an economics lesson: If the evil American businessman was not hiring illegals to do his work, then prices would raise drastically and thus destroy the lower class in America (who does not want to work.) Higher prices would lead to lower standard of living and thus a higher poverty level.

Question for you OldVol:

In a vacuum, how wealthy is an individual who earns $25/hour?

 

[smokedog#3]

really the only two bad ones are the real ut and UT, everybody else is pretty cool. they just come out to chat and vent alittle. i hate to say it but the rest of the republicans on this board are alright. :biggrin2:

 

[UTGRADnNC]

Problem is, when it comes to the 2 topics which dare not be spoken of (politics/religion), some people can handle when the party they affliate themselves with is poked fun at...they can laugh it off, as simplistic rhetoric. The two major parties in the United States political system both deserve a good ribbing every now and then.

However, it's the folks who take everything too seriously, and are so tied to a particular political ideology that they can't have a good time with it....Especially considering that this is a public message board, not the halls of Congress.

I find that in regards to what I've stated above, along with pretty much the enitre thing, Lewis Black said it the best....

"The Democratic Party is the Party of no ideas, while the Republican Party is the Party of no ideas...."

How do you like dem apples?

:gun: :gun: :gun:

 

[smokedog#3]

pretty good point

 

[UTGRADnNC]

really the only two bad ones are the real ut and UT, everybody else is pretty cool. they just come out to chat and vent alittle. i hate to say it but the rest of the republicans on this board are alright. :biggrin2:

I sincerly hope you're not talking about me...I've posted on maybe three political threads during my time here, and after reading your discussions with RealUT in regards to roaring gas prices/the middle east, energy dependence, you're in no position to throw stones.

 

[therealUT]

even your government don't know how many illegals are in the USA and you can honestly say there are more working for corporations and paying taxes than ones who don't. i'll leave that subject there because if you honestly believe that then tell me when dorthy from the wizard of oz lands in kansas. have you ever been to urgent care champ. you can go there for any reason, on this issue i'm sure you are wrong 100%. i try to see your view point on some, but you are wrong on this one. in arizona by the way the GOV is a democrat the state and senate reps are republicans along with the city representitives ( of phoenix ). i have a feeling after this election that will change somewhat.

My government? Won't even touch that one, any more than that.

You can go to an urgent care center or an emergency room for any reason, you are right. However, besides the cost of the time, the costs (not price of visit) is very low for someone who does not have an urgent medical problem and can be legally turned back out of the hospital with no real care having been provided.

Your point about the states political parties in control right now, is completely irrelevant. If Arizona has a state law mandating that every illegal must be seen, then that was probably enacted when (word I used last time, but apparently you missed) the state was controlled by Democrats.

 

[smokedog#3]

times have changed in 200 years. that in my opinion doesn't make to much sense. economy is different, government is different, work is different, free market is different, more laws, less freedoms, etc. it doesn't change the fact that they are breaking the law and are illegals.

 

[therealUT]

times have changed in 200 years. that in my opinion doesn't make to much sense. economy is different, government is different, work is different, free market is different, more laws, less freedoms, etc. it doesn't change the fact that they are breaking the law and are illegals.

Times change, principles never should. I know that you are no fan of Lincoln, however, he made this statement a few hours prior to being shot at Ford's Theatre.

I have very large ideas of the mineral wealth of our Nation. I believe it practically inexhaustible. It abounds all over the western country, from the Rocky Mountains to the Pacific, and its development has scarcely commenced. . . . Immigration, which even the war has not stopped, will land upon our shores hundred of thousands more per year from overcrowded Europe. I intend to point them to the gold and silver that waits for them in the West. Tell the miners from me, that I shall promote their interests to the utmost of my ability; because their prosperity is the prosperity of the Nation, and we shall prove in a very few years that we are indeed the treasury of the world.

I would say that he very much understood the basic principles of economics (which never change, by the way.) Free market does not change over time either.

 

[dan4vols]

My personal favorite comment in this thread was.....''who cares what 80% of Americans want?'' That pretty much defines in a nutshell to me what the opinion of elected officials of any party(once elected)have of those that cast the ballots. I think it speaks to why most people avoid politics because deep down they know the truth in their heart...the system is so FUBAR that those that appear on ballots are intrested in taking care of #1, and not fixing whats broken because no 1 person has the authority and resourses to get it done, even if that was their true intention. So why talk about it? The monster machine is in motion and no 1 can stop it.....we're on a greased rail on a 80 degree angle :drive2: take a look around yourself...is this nation on a downward trend?

 

[smokedog#3]

arizona to my knowledge has always been controlled by republicans. i'm almost 100% sure your wrong there, and if it is the case i'm 100% sure mccain voted for it. i know you can not turn a illegal away from a hospital, it may have changed since prop 200 passed i'm not sure, but before i left you couldn't. it was all over the news. also how do you define a urgent problem. if a person has a cold you have to listen to their lungs. if you turn them away and they die you would have ceaser chavez and his possee out in front of the hospital by days end.

 

[smokedog#3]

Times change, principles never should. I know that you are no fan of Lincoln, however, he made this statement a few hours prior to being shot at Ford's Theatre.
I would say that he very much understood the basic principles of economics (which never change, by the way.) Free market does not change over time either.

the free market does change as more and more commodities are introduced. those guys in the second part were living the original american dream, which is a fantasy now. they didn't have a clue.

 

[smokedog#3]

no not talking about you there is a guy that is UT he is horrible. i only get upset when somebody says i'm stupid or lying. that irritates me.