Hardnosed political discussion . . .

[therealUT]

arizona to my knowledge has always been controlled by republicans. i'm almost 100% sure your wrong there, and if it is the case i'm 100% sure mccain voted for it. i know you can not turn a illegal away from a hospital, it may have changed since prop 200 passed i'm not sure, but before i left you couldn't. it was all over the news. also how do you define a urgent problem. if a person has a cold you have to listen to their lungs. if you turn them away and they die you would have ceaser chavez and his possee out in front of the hospital by days end.

Funny, I thought John McCain as spent his whole career as an elected official on the Federal level...

 

[therealUT]

the free market does change as more and more commodities are introduced. those guys in the second part were living the original american dream, which is a fantasy now. they didn't have a clue.

Free market principles never change, even as more commodities are introduced Smoke. As for the guys in the second part, I believe they had a clue.

 

[OldVol]

I don't know about you, but my ancestors came here illegally from Ireland. Also, pretty much everyone of Italian descent in America has ancestors that were WOPs (With Out Papers) who most definitely came to America illegally. If you are of German descent, your ancestors probably came over as Hessian soldiers, and therefore illegally as enemies of the Continental Army. So, basically, the only people who have a legitimate claim to their family's citizenship over the past 100-200 years, are people of English descent, African Americans, and Native Americans. Good thing the U.S. didn't deport us, or there would have never been a railroad.

You talk about destroying the middle class and evil businessmen as if you have never had a business or economics lesson in your life. I will provide the briefest of an economics lesson: If the evil American businessman was not hiring illegals to do his work, then prices would raise drastically and thus destroy the lower class in America (who does not want to work.) Higher prices would lead to lower standard of living and thus a higher poverty level.

Question for you OldVol:

In a vacuum, how wealthy is an individual who earns $25/hour?

If you're of Irish descent, and your people came illegally, then they were in a micorosopic minority of Irish who did so.

I have done extensive research of Irish immigrants and the overwhelming majority of them came here legally.

The Italians and Irish you mention, almost to the man, came through Ellis Island when immigration laws were different. Yes, many came without papers, but they were legally processed before ever stepping foot outside of Ellis Island.

That they came without papers did not make them illegal in that era. The laws permitted them to come and be processed on the spot.

That is not happening today at our southern border.

 

[OldVol]

Question for you OldVol:

In a vacuum, how wealthy is an individual who earns $25/hour?

I missed this question in my previous response.

My observations were not about wealth. But, an individual who earns $25 dollars an hour can become enormously wealthy
if they manage their money correctly. They may never be mult-millionaires, but they can retire with very comfortable nest eggs.

My observations were meant to point out the difference in the quality of life of a man trying to raise a family on 6 dollars per hour as opposed to the lower
middle class who earn between 15 and 30 dollars per hour. A 2 income family earning 50 to 70 thousand dollars can live well, own their own home, drive nice autos save for their children's education and secure a comfortable retirement. Those forced to work for the 6 dollars can never hope to have any part
of the American dream and that is unfair to people who are already legal citizens.

The hopes of the lower middle class is fading, and soon will be a memory.

It just isn't fair or honest of us to deprive them of that. Not every American should go to college. Not every American should have to to enjoy a
comfortable lifestyle.

 

[OldVol]

Problem is, when it comes to the 2 topics which dare not be spoken of (politics/religion), some people can handle when the party they affliate themselves with is poked fun at...they can laugh it off, as simplistic rhetoric. The two major parties in the United States political system both deserve a good ribbing every now and then.

However, it's the folks who take everything too seriously, and are so tied to a particular political ideology that they can't have a good time with it....Especially considering that this is a public message board, not the halls of Congress.

I find that in regards to what I've stated above, along with pretty much the enitre thing, Lewis Black said it the best....

"The Democratic Party is the Party of no ideas, while the Republican Party is the Party of no ideas...."

How do you like dem apples?

:gun: :gun: :gun:

You lack a fundamental component in conversation on a message board that should cause everyone to take pause. That component is the
familiarity of real-time conversation. If we were in a coffee shop discussing these topics, we might be polar opposites, we might even argue
at our lungs limits, but we have the ingredient of human contact that allows us to read body language, see facial expressions, and hear the intonation
of our conversant.

That's not possible on a message board. It is why things said in jest are all too often misunderstood.

That is why it is best to be respective, courteous and kind on message boards.

It shoudn't take the fun out just because you can't be a jerk. (I don't mean you personally, but you in the general sense.)

If not being able to be a jerk takes the fun out of it for people, then they have serious issues.

 

[volinbham]

Problem is, when it comes to the 2 topics which dare not be spoken of (politics/religion), some people can handle when the party they affliate themselves with is poked fun at...they can laugh it off, as simplistic rhetoric. The two major parties in the United States political system both deserve a good ribbing every now and then.

I completely agree -- above all else, comedy is king. A true test of a comedian is the ability to recognize that all views/parties are equally good targets. Lazy comedy only takes shots at the side it's not on. While I can appreciate the comedic talents of Bill Maher and shows such as The Daily Show and The Colbert Report, they are lazy in their one-sidedness. The are comedy versions of Rush Limbaugh.

 

[therealUT]

I missed this question in my previous response.

My observations were not about wealth. But, an individual who earns $25 dollars an hour can become enormously wealthy
if they manage their money correctly. They may never be mult-millionaires, but they can retire with very comfortable nest eggs.

My observations were meant to point out the difference in the quality of life of a man trying to raise a family on 6 dollars per hour as opposed to the lower
middle class who earn between 15 and 30 dollars per hour. A 2 income family earning 50 to 70 thousand dollars can live well, own their own home, drive nice autos save for their children's education and secure a comfortable retirement. Those forced to work for the 6 dollars can never hope to have any part
of the American dream and that is unfair to people who are already legal citizens.

The hopes of the lower middle class is fading, and soon will be a memory.

It just isn't fair or honest of us to deprive them of that. Not every American should go to college. Not every American should have to to enjoy a
comfortable lifestyle.

You missed the point of my question.

In a vacuum, how wealthy is a person who earns $25/hour?

There is no way to tell, because you know nothing else (i.e. cost of living.) The point I was intending to make is that when you force business to abide by a minimum wage, you do not benefit anyone, unless the government controls the prices.

Now, aside from my original point, your lower middle class earns $15-$30/hr? Or, anywhere between $42,000 and $83,000 annually? That is your lower middle class??? If that is the case, then I do not believe that their hopes are fading at all!

 

[dan4vols]

are there no workhouses?....are there no prisons?

 

[therealUT]

Hopefully, the message is sent:

Tyson Foods Inc., the world's largest meat producer, shuttered about a dozen of its more than 100 plants and saw ``higher-than-usual absenteeism'' at others. Most of the closures were in states such as Iowa and Nebraska. Eight of 14 Perdue Farms chicken plants also closed for the day.

None of the 175 seasonal laborers who normally work Mike Collins' 500 acres of Vidalia onion fields in southeastern Georgia showed up.

``We need to be going wide open this time of year to get these onions out of the field,'' he said. ``We've got orders to fill. Losing a day in this part of the season causes a tremendous amount of problems.''

It was the same story in Indiana, where the owner of a landscaping business said he was at a loss. About 25 Hispanic workers - 90 percent of the field work force - never reported Monday to Salsbery Brothers Landscaping.

``We're basically shut down in our busiest month of the year,'' said owner Jeff Salsbery. ``It's going to cost me thousands of dollars.''[/]

In the Los Angeles area, restaurants and markets were dark and truckers avoided the nation's largest shipping port. About one in three small businesses was closed downtown, including the cluttered produce market and fashion district.

Truck traffic at the twin ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach - the nation's largest port complex - was off 90 percent, said spokeswoman Theresa Adams Lopez.

All that equates to tremendous costs for the businesses that were effected. How are they going to get that money back? Raise prices.

Let's see what we have learned here, without the work of the illegal immigrants, shipping would cost more, produce would cost more, there would be less chicken factories equating to not as fresh chicken at a higher cost (longer transportation routes compounded by more expensive shipping costs.) But, hey, that is your socialist America.

Be careful what you wish for.

 

[OldVol]

You missed the point of my question.
There is no way to tell, because you know nothing else (i.e. cost of living.) The point I was intending to make is that when you force business to abide by a minimum wage, you do not benefit anyone, unless the government controls the prices.

Now, aside from my original point, your lower middle class earns $15-$30/hr? Or, anywhere between $42,000 and $83,000 annually? That is your lower middle class??? If that is the case, then I do not believe that their hopes are fading at all!

The availability of those jobs are shrinking because of illegal workers.

It can't be that hard to understand that if you can pay factory workers 5 or 6 dollars per hour as oppposed to paying a reasonable, union type of wage,
that those who once were making 15-30 dollars per hour are shrinking.

In today's economy, the upper middle class begins, believe it or not, at around 75K per year.

A family of 3 earning that can beconsidered on the low end of the upper middle class spectrum.

I don't know what you earn, or where you consider yourself class wise, but those earning marginally less than 75K are in the upper-lower middle class.

It's been some time since I've studied economics, but as a guess I'd put the classes, based on a family of 3:

14,000 and below -below the poverty level
14,000 to 21, 000 lower class
21,000 to 37,000 lower middle class
37,000 to 53,000 middle class
53,000 to 75,000 upper middle class
75,000 to 100,000 elite middle class
100,000 and beyond would cover the several segments of upper class.

With the illegal problem as it is, the lower class and the lower middle classes will both suffer greatly.

It's just a simple principle of economics.

 

[smokedog#3]

they used to make 16 dollars an hour at tyson too, till the illegals came in and now they make 8. yep i bet you in roman times that free market never changed either. i think your wrong. i have a idea lets get a dictator flood the USA with illegals everybody of no importance makes the same wage everybody can be common. 5% are rich 95% are poor or the same as you would call it, i guess that would be the same as china or any communist country. this seems like the way you would have things run. that capitalist 5% i take it you are in.

 

[dan4vols]

Id find it extremely intresting to see who on this MB thinks what class their in.....by intresting I mean revealing.

 

[smokedog#3]

you are wise oldvol. all knowledgeable in politics and football. :bow:

 

[SURFSIDEBEACHVOL]

If you're of Irish descent, and your people came illegally, then they were in a micorosopic minority of Irish who did so.

I have done extensive research of Irish immigrants and the overwhelming majority of them came here legally.

The Italians and Irish you mention, almost to the man, came through Ellis Island when immigration laws were different. Yes, many came without papers, but they were legally processed before ever stepping foot outside of Ellis Island.

That they came without papers did not make them illegal in that era. The laws permitted them to come and be processed on the spot.

That is not happening today at our southern border.

:yes:

 

[therealUT]

they used to make 16 dollars an hour at tyson too, till the illegals came in and now they make 8. yep i bet you in roman times that free market never changed either. i think your wrong. i have a idea lets get a dictator flood the USA with illegals everybody of no importance makes the same wage everybody can be common. 5% are rich 95% are poor or the same as you would call it, i guess that would be the same as china or any communist country. this seems like the way you would have things run. that capitalist 5% i take it you are in.

What??? Free market capitalism, as a principle, is unchanging. Period, the end!

Also, when you restrict principles of free market capitalism in the effort to benefit society, the benefit fails. Example: Getting rid of wage competition by legistlating minimum wages, does not provide a benefit. More money, yes, however, the spending power of those earning more money does not increase. Therefore, actual wealth is not effected. Therefore, by forcing illegals to attain citizenship before coming to America, you, in fact, raise the lowest wages and therefore decrease spending power across the board. I have spent weeks trying to explain this simple concept to you, Smoke, and I do not know how to make it any easier to grasp.

 

[therealUT]

The availability of those jobs are shrinking because of illegal workers.

It can't be that hard to understand that if you can pay factory workers 5 or 6 dollars per hour as oppposed to paying a reasonable, union type of wage,
that those who once were making 15-30 dollars per hour are shrinking.

In today's economy, the upper middle class begins, believe it or not, at around 75K per year.

A family of 3 earning that can beconsidered on the low end of the upper middle class spectrum.

I don't know what you earn, or where you consider yourself class wise, but those earning marginally less than 75K are in the upper-lower middle class.

It's been some time since I've studied economics, but as a guess I'd put the classes, based on a family of 3:

14,000 and below -below the poverty level
14,000 to 21, 000 lower class
21,000 to 37,000 lower middle class
37,000 to 53,000 middle class [$15/hr starts your lower middle class in here]
53,000 to 75,000 upper middle class
75,000 to 100,000 elite middle class [$30/hr ends it in here]
100,000 and beyond would cover the several segments of upper class.

With the illegal problem as it is, the lower class and the lower middle classes will both suffer greatly.

It's just a simple principle of economics.

And here is what you responded to:

There is no way to tell, because you know nothing else (i.e. cost of living.) The point I was intending to make is that when you force business to abide by a minimum wage, you do not benefit anyone, unless the government controls the prices.

Now, aside from my original point, your lower middle class earns $15-$30/hr? Or, anywhere between $42,000 and $83,000 annually? That is your lower middle class??? If that is the case, then I do not believe that their hopes are fading at all!

 

[smokedog#3]

i think the people that make minimum wage would disagree with you. that whole bit about decreasing spending power i just don't see. to me it is way off i just don't see it. only people it hurts in big buisness and to me that is fine. they are still ILLEGALS they should all be shipped home. even most of the legal mexicans agree. so now your telling me just to promote capitalism we should take down the stars and bars and put up the mexican flag because it is good for buisness. two wrongs doesn't make a right no matter how much thought you put in it.

 

[GAVol]

You lack a fundamental component in conversation on a message board that should cause everyone to take pause. That component is the familiarity of real-time conversation. If we were in a coffee shop discussing these topics, we might be polar opposites, we might even argue at our lungs limits, but we have the ingredient of human contact that allows us to read body language, see facial expressions, and hear the intonation of our conversant.

That's not possible on a message board. It is why things said in jest are all too often misunderstood. That is why it is best to be respective, courteous and kind on message boards.

It shoudn't take the fun out just because you can't be a jerk. (I don't mean you personally, but you in the general sense.) If not being able to be a jerk takes the fun out of it for people, then they have serious issues.

:bow: :bow: :bow: That's about the best it can be said.

I wish we could install a "jerk filter" and make this message pop up automatically.

 

[therealUT]

i think the people that make minimum wage would disagree with you. that whole bit about decreasing spending power i just don't see. to me it is way off i just don't see it. only people it hurts in big buisness and to me that is fine. they are still ILLEGALS they should all be shipped home. even most of the legal mexicans agree. so now your telling me just to promote capitalism we should take down the stars and bars and put up the mexican flag because it is good for buisness. two wrongs doesn't make a right no matter how much thought you put in it.

The America Flag is a symbol of what America stands for, i.e. it is above all a symbol of our Constitution. Read it.

Next, the people making minimum wage probably would disagree with me, as they are probably making minimum wage because they are either 1) still in high school, or 2) never graduated from high school.

Either way, they probably do not even have the slightest grip of the basic tenets of economics, because they probably were not paying attention while it was being taught.

Also, I base right and wrong on morals. There is nothing morally or intrinsically wrong with hiring anyone you wish to do a job for you at whatever wage the two of you agree to.

 

[therealUT]

We do not need a 'jerk filter,' people need to understand some things. And, yes, I realize I will be labeled an A-Hole for stating this, but, I think it needs to be stated.

There is a difference between being stupid and ignorant. Being ignorant is being uninformed and uneducated as it pertains to certain topics. It is less an attack against a person, more an attack on their education system and their ability to collect and retain information.

Calling somebody stupid is saying that they don't have the mental capacity to truly understand something even if they are educated and informed.

Being ignorant and being stupid are things that are usually out of a person's control. However, what is very irritating are people that choose to remain ignorant and then complain when people call them on it.

 

[GAVol]

Thus the reason for rule #2. You know as well as I do that there are a million ways to articulately call somebody an idiot without calling them an idiot.

 

[smokedog#3]

sounds like most of your other posts. the sermon as told by preacher therealut. calling them stupid without calling them stupid, yep that sounds like what i usually hear from you.

 

[smokedog#3]

we will have more illegal mexicans here in 10 years than citizens in the USA if we don't do something. like i said raise the mexican flag it is good for buisness. there is that same phrase again because you didn't go to college you deserve to be poor. you know realut people like you will lead to the downfall of our country.

 

[therealUT]

we will have more illegal mexicans here in 10 years than citizens in the USA if we don't do something. like i said raise the mexican flag it is good for buisness. there is that same phrase again because you didn't go to college you deserve to be poor. you know realut people like you will lead to the downfall of our country.

We are going to go from around 10 million to over 300 million in 10 years??? Also, I never stated that about college and deserving to be poor.

Little bit of trivia:

Mexican population: 106 million. So, basically, the Mexican population is going to explode over the next 10 years, and every last one of them are going to move to America.

 

[GAVol]

:shakehead: The reason the original thread was moved is coming back to me now. Here's an idea . . . If you can't have and handle the give and take of civil debate, avoid this thread completely.