Has anyone read this?

[daizenshuu]

I have seen quite a few fat/Krispy Kreme jokes on this board from UT fans (used loosely). Leave that to the classless bammers.

Results are not personal and I agree some shots need to be taken every now and again. However, to blame execution on coaches is wrong. I have never seen a coach, good or bad, execute a game plan. Have you? I believe the talent and coaching is in place this year but the PLAYERS have to execute in the game. Did our players step up and execute the game plan? We don't know here because we don't know what the true plan was. The players know and I hope they come out this year w/ a chip on their shoulder and with something to prove. Bottom line, I believe the team was put in a good position last season and failed. It happens. The oly difference is it's not supposed to happen at UT.

I think last year's team was put in a good situation at the beginning of the year, but the coaches and the players helped drag each other to the bottom. I don't think Fulmer is a great coach, because great coaches have the insight to see what must be done to win and have the will and discipline to drive their team in that direction, even in the middle of a bad year, which Fulmer all but proved he couldn't do.
What Fulmer is is a very respectable coach and one of, if not the, best recruiters in the nation. He does his absolute best work when he brings in top tier talent (which is almost always), gets his players on the same page, lets very good assistant coaches do the training and such, and then oversees his OC and DC during the game. He should rightly be blamed for what Hatvol referred to as "cronyism", because ever since his most talented assistants left the talent he has been bringing in has been left to rot in the sun more and more often. It's nice to see that he decided to shake it up after a 5-6 season, but what scares me is what happens 2-3 years from now when Chavis, Trooper, and Cutcliffe all take off around the same time. If he tries to promote from within again he'll just kill the program.
Should his pay be less/incentive-laden (Does any coach actually have a contract with major salary tied up in incentives? It makes me sad that such a good idea will never reach fruition...)? Probably. Is he the Ubercoach that everyone seems to label Weiss as? Not even close. Do I think we should('ve) fired him? Not on your life, not now that we have talent at the coordinator and assistant level. But we have to have that layer between CPF and evreything else, because he seems like he's more cut out for a GM type job. NO ONE is better at bringing talent in, and when you can get assistants and coordinators to help plug up all the "holes in the dyke", you'll get a perinnial powerhouse program. What needs to be done is to keep/hire great coordinators (I mean, honestly, does anyone expect us to be worse off with Cutcliffe back?!?)
As for calling CPF fat...he is. I think he's heard it enough that it's not going to hurt his feelings any. If it does, he should leave the last breast in the bucket and lose weight so anyone calling him fat looks like a 'tard. Bottom line, just because I rip on Fulmer and have referred to him as "the Philsbury Doughboy" on occasion doesn't make me a bad person, or worse a Bammer. I love Vol football, I like the doughboy mostly, and if anyone can't take these comments with a grin and a grain of salt, I wouldn't be wholly opposed to a government program which pays these people money to voluntarily submit to sterilization.

 

[jakez4ut]

I think last year's team was put in a good situation at the beginning of the year, but the coaches and the players helped drag each other to the bottom. I don't think Fulmer is a great coach, because great coaches have the insight to see what must be done to win and have the will and discipline to drive their team in that direction, even in the middle of a bad year, which Fulmer all but proved he couldn't do.
What Fulmer is is a very respectable coach and one of, if not the, best recruiters in the nation. He does his absolute best work when he brings in top tier talent (which is almost always), gets his players on the same page, lets very good assistant coaches do the training and such, and then oversees his OC and DC during the game. He should rightly be blamed for what Hatvol referred to as "cronyism", because ever since his most talented assistants left the talent he has been bringing in has been left to rot in the sun more and more often. It's nice to see that he decided to shake it up after a 5-6 season, but what scares me is what happens 2-3 years from now when Chavis, Trooper, and Cutcliffe all take off around the same time. If he tries to promote from within again he'll just kill the program.
Should his pay be less/incentive-laden (Does any coach actually have a contract with major salary tied up in incentives? It makes me sad that such a good idea will never reach fruition...)? Probably. Is he the Ubercoach that everyone seems to label Weiss as? Not even close. Do I think we should('ve) fired him? Not on your life, not now that we have talent at the coordinator and assistant level. But we have to have that layer between CPF and evreything else, because he seems like he's more cut out for a GM type job. NO ONE is better at bringing talent in, and when you can get assistants and coordinators to help plug up all the "holes in the dyke", you'll get a perinnial powerhouse program. What needs to be done is to keep/hire great coordinators (I mean, honestly, does anyone expect us to be worse off with Cutcliffe back?!?)
As for calling CPF fat...he is. I think he's heard it enough that it's not going to hurt his feelings any. If it does, he should leave the last breast in the bucket and lose weight so anyone calling him fat looks like a 'tard. Bottom line, just because I rip on Fulmer and have referred to him as "the Philsbury Doughboy" on occasion doesn't make me a bad person, or worse a Bammer. I love Vol football, I like the doughboy mostly, and if anyone can't take these comments with a grin and a grain of salt, I wouldn't be wholly opposed to a government program which pays these people money to voluntarily submit to sterilization.

i'm not a big fan of the "doughboy" comments about CPF either, but this is a great post. and i think it's probably a more accurate slant on what most UT fans feel more times than not, no matter what side of the CPF arguement you are labeled to be on. Now there is a distinct few that truly think he should be fired, and that's fine, but more times than not, all we all really want is for it to get better, no matter who's at the helm. and i'm like you.....he's got a lot of work to do, and the leash gets shorter and shorter if these types of seaons start becoming a little more regular.

But, i'm one of the ones that thinks this past season was an abberation, and we'll be back to 9+ wins in 06, and 05 will be a distant memory. If not, well, we'll discuss that after next season....

until then, good post.

 

[utvolpj]

As for calling CPF fat...he is. I think he's heard it enough that it's not going to hurt his feelings any. If it does, he should leave the last breast in the bucket and lose weight so anyone calling him fat looks like a 'tard. Bottom line, just because I rip on Fulmer and have referred to him as "the Philsbury Doughboy" on occasion doesn't make me a bad person, or worse a Bammer. I love Vol football, I like the doughboy mostly, and if anyone can't take these comments with a grin and a grain of salt, I wouldn't be wholly opposed to a government program which pays these people money to voluntarily submit to sterilization.

Up until there I kind of agreed. Anyone who feels the need to take shots at someone's personal appearance for their own amusement is sad. Since when does the size of anyone dictate their effectiveness? It's cheap, and yes, it's reserved for bammers and the like.

 

[daizenshuu]

Up until there I kind of agreed. Anyone who feels the need to take shots at someone's personal appearance for their own amusement is sad. Since when does the size of anyone dictate their effectiveness? It's cheap, and yes, it's reserved for bammers and the like.

Believe me, I don't think his weight has a single iota to do with his effectiveness as a coach. I'm not taking shots at his weight to criticize his tenure or ability, I do it because I feel I am some "part" of Vol Nation, and poking fun at people is part of being in a group. Just because I make fun of him doesn't mean I dislike him as a person or a coach (I really like him as a person, and he is a good coach), it just means that I see him as another person in that group. No biggie, no reason to call me the B-word. It's just a plain and simple fact: Fulmer is fat. If he weren't fat, I'd be poking at something else. It's all in good fun, ladies and gents, all in good fun...

 

[holdemvol]

True. If they fail miserably at their job, I will criticize them.

Failed miserably? Come on, I will give you last year but exactly how many coaches have a better record over the last 10 years?

 

[hatvol96]

Failed miserably? Come on, I will give you last year but exactly how many coaches have a better record over the last 10 years?

That sample excludes guys like Stoops and Carroll because they haven't been around 10 years. Let's go last 5.

 

[WA_Vol]

Failed miserably? Come on, I will give you last year but exactly how many coaches have a better record over the last 10 years?

Fulmer doesnt even have the best record in the SEC, that belongs to Richt. If Saban was still at LSU, he would be behind him. Spurrier has a better record then Fulmer as well, and thats just the SEC.

Meyer and LSU's new coach may pass Fulmer in the next 4 years, they have a good start.

 

[holdemvol]

That sample excludes guys like Stoops and Carroll because they haven't been around 10 years. Let's go last 5.

So Stoops and Carroll won't go through rough years? Again, last year aside an 8 win season was about as bad as it got. Do you honestly believe Stoops or Carroll won't have a few of those after 10 - 15 seasons? How about Bobby Bowden? Has he failed miserably? How did Oklahoma do last year? Not as bad as UT but still terrible by our standards.

 

[holdemvol]

Fulmer doesnt even have the best record in the SEC, that belongs to Richt. If Saban was still at LSU, he would be behind him. Spurrier has a better record then Fulmer as well, and thats just the SEC.

Meyer and LSU's new coach may pass Fulmer in the next 4 years, they have a good start.

Again, give richt another 10 years on the job and you will see a few sub par seasons. Hell 04 was supposed to be the year they won it all and they didn't even finish first in the east......"Fulmer the Failure" did. I will not argue with Spurrier point because he is a better coach but My point is that not many coaches in the country can hold a candle to Fulmer's record. Meyer and Miles have not proven anything to this point so let's not sing thier praises until they have been around long enough to make a real judgement.

 

[hatvol96]

Again, give richt another 10 years on the job and you will see a few sub par seasons. Hell 04 was supposed to be the year they won it all and they didn't even finish first in the east......"Fulmer the Failure" did. I will not argue with Spurrier point because he is a better coach but My point is that not many coaches in the country can hold a candle to Fulmer's record. Meyer and Miles have not proven anything to this point so let's not sing thier praises until they have been around long enough to make a real judgement.

Miles was in the SEC Championship game in his first year. How many years did it take Fulmer to get there?

 

[hatvol96]

So Stoops and Carroll won't go through rough years? Again, last year aside an 8 win season was about as bad as it got. Do you honestly believe Stoops or Carroll won't have a few of those after 10 - 15 seasons? How about Bobby Bowden? Has he failed miserably? How did Oklahoma do last year? Not as bad as UT but still terrible by our standards.

Will Stoops and Carroll have some off years? Yes. Will either of them ever have two 8 win and one 5 win season in a six year stretch? I seriously doubt it.

 

[WA_Vol]

Miles was in the SEC Championship game in his first year. How many years did it take Fulmer to get there?

Yes, and Miles at LSU finished the season ranked in the top 10. Something Fulmer has done once in the last 7 years.

Meyer defeated UT in his second game with a new offense his team was still having trouble running. Meyer also finished with the top recruiting class in the nation this year. I wouldn't dismiss Meyer, IMO he's a real threat to push Fulmer to 3rd in the SEC east, and thats only if Fulmer can get a handle on Spurrier.

 

[holdemvol]

Miles was in the SEC Championship game in his first year. How many years did it take Fulmer to get there?

Ok, so Miles did a pretty good job with a LOADED team for ONE season. We can have the Miles discussion when he has done it for 5-10 years, but until then if we are going to pick ONE year for comparison how about 98? Before you even say it I know it was 8 years ago, we have not won anything since, blah blah blah but the point is that to make a judgement on a coach based on one season is absolutely ridiculous. If Fulmer won the SEC next year and I proclaimed he was the best coach in the SEC because he took a 5-6 team to a conference championship I would get bombarded with but....but....but...."5-6" but...but..."8-4"...but....."finished outside the top ten" because I would have based my statement on ONE YEAR so lets not even bring the new coaches into the discussion when all we have is ONE YEAR to base judgement on.

 

[holdemvol]

Yes, and Miles at LSU finished the season ranked in the top 10. Something Fulmer has done once in the last 7 years.

Meyer defeated UT in his second game with a new offense his team was still having trouble running. Meyer also finished with the top recruiting class in the nation this year. I wouldn't dismiss Meyer, IMO he's a real threat to push Fulmer to 3rd in the SEC east, and thats only if Fulmer can get a handle on Spurrier.

Yeah, Bobby Johnson beat Fulmer last year too so what is your point? Meyer is a solid coach I'm sure, but there is no way to have this discussion in a fair manner when he has been in the SEC for ONE season. Again, let him do it for 10 years and we will see where he falls. And as far as SC goes, Spurrier is a great coach but please, it is SC.

 

[hatvol96]

Ok, so Miles did a pretty good job with a LOADED team for ONE season. We can have the Miles discussion when he has done it for 5-10 years, but until then if we are going to pick ONE year for comparison how about 98? Before you even say it I know it was 8 years ago, we have not won anything since, blah blah blah but the point is that to make a judgement on a coach based on one season is absolutely ridiculous. If Fulmer won the SEC next year and I proclaimed he was the best coach in the SEC because he took a 5-6 team to a conference championship I would get bombarded with but....but....but...."5-6" but...but..."8-4"...but....."finished outside the top ten" because I would have based my statement on ONE YEAR so lets not even bring the new coaches into the discussion when all we have is ONE YEAR to base judgement on.

You stated Miles had proven nothing. Making the Championship Game in his first year proves something.

 

[hatvol96]

Ok, so Miles did a pretty good job with a LOADED team for ONE season. We can have the Miles discussion when he has done it for 5-10 years, but until then if we are going to pick ONE year for comparison how about 98? Before you even say it I know it was 8 years ago, we have not won anything since, blah blah blah but the point is that to make a judgement on a coach based on one season is absolutely ridiculous. If Fulmer won the SEC next year and I proclaimed he was the best coach in the SEC because he took a 5-6 team to a conference championship I would get bombarded with but....but....but...."5-6" but...but..."8-4"...but....."finished outside the top ten" because I would have based my statement on ONE YEAR so lets not even bring the new coaches into the discussion when all we have is ONE YEAR to base judgement on.

If he wins the SEC next year, he will be the best coach in the SEC for the 2006 season. Just like Richt was the best coach in the conference for '05. It's not a complicated equation.

 

[WA_Vol]

Yeah, Bobby Johnson beat Fulmer last year too so what is your point? Meyer is a solid coach I'm sure, but there is no way to have this discussion in a fair manner when he has been in the SEC for ONE season. Again, let him do it for 10 years and we will see where he falls. And as far as SC goes, Spurrier is a great coach but please, it is SC.

In 2 seasons at Utah, Meyer took an unranked Utah team to a perfect 12-0 season, winning a BCS game in the process. Fulmer has been to 2 BCS in games in 14 yrs at UT, and won 1 of them. You greatly underestimate Meyer.

 

[holdemvol]

If he wins the SEC next year, he will be the best coach in the SEC for the 2006 season. Just like Richt was the best coach in the conference for '05. It's not a complicated equation.

No it is not complicated in fact it is a little overly simplistic. But....since you want to use where you finish in a given year as the measuring stick here I guess you are willing to say that "Fulmer the Failure" was the second best coach in the SEC in 04? Even better than your boy Richt? Let me make sure I have this straight, when ranking coaches you simply put them in order of finish for the season? Interesting.......I guess this whole discussion was a waste since coaching ability is all in black and white.....right there in the standings, therefore the "best coach" is actually different almost every year. Wow, whoda thunk it...Fulmer Jr., I mean Mack Brown is the best coach in the entire nation bar none!

 

[holdemvol]

In 2 seasons at Utah, Meyer took an unranked Utah team to a perfect 12-0 season, winning a BCS game in the process. Fulmer has been to 2 BCS in games in 14 yrs at UT, and won 1 of them. You greatly underestimate Meyer.

No, I do not underestimate Meyer, I simply am not convinced that he will dominate the east let alone the SEC just because he went undefeated in a weak conference and beat a pathetic Pitt team who had no business being in a BCS game to begin with. I think he is a good coach but his offense cannot dominate fast SEC defenses like he did out west. He was everybodies Golden Boy after the great season at Utah and that is fine but it does not mean he is going to dominate the SEC. Again, he is a good coach but he has not proven he can win anything on a consistent basis on this level.

 

[hatvol96]

No it is not complicated in fact it is a little overly simplistic. But....since you want to use where you finish in a given year as the measuring stick here I guess you are willing to say that "Fulmer the Failure" was the second best coach in the SEC in 04? Even better than your boy Richt? Let me make sure I have this straight, when ranking coaches you simply put them in order of finish for the season? Interesting.......I guess this whole discussion was a waste since coaching ability is all in black and white.....right there in the standings, therefore the "best coach" is actually different almost every year. Wow, whoda thunk it...Fulmer Jr., I mean Mack Brown is the best coach in the entire nation bar none!

Typical Fulmer supporter. Unable to grasp the nuances of a complex argument. The championship coach is "the man" for that season. However, taking a broader view, the accumulation of seasons decides where a coach ranks among his peers. Fulmer has been a head coach for 13 full seasons. He has won 2 SEC championships. Richt has 2 in 5 years. Spurrier has several more. Saban had two in a much shorter stint. The facts bear out something very elementary. Fulmer is a good coach, not an elite one. Elite coaches win conferences championships at a rate much better than one every 6 1/2 seasons.

 

[holdemvol]

Typical Fulmer supporter. Unable to grasp the nuances of a complex argument. The championship coach is "the man" for that season. However, taking a broader view, the accumulation of seasons decides where a coach ranks among his peers. Fulmer has been a head coach for 13 full seasons. He has won 2 SEC championships. Richt has 2 in 5 years. Spurrier has several more. Saban had two in a much shorter stint. The facts bear out something very elementary. Fulmer is a good coach, not an elite one. Elite coaches win conferences championships at a rate much better than one every 6 1/2 seasons.

Actually the whole "whoever wins is the best coach" argument was not complex at all. Yes I expect more that 2 championships in 13 years and I never said that Richt, visor boy or Saban were not great coaches. Well, Richt has proven to be good coach but not great. How long did it take Fulmer to win his 2? My whole point is that when Richt, Miles, Meyer or whoever have got it done for 10-15 years that is the only point at which you can make a fair comparison. Spurrier is a better coach, as was Saban and Richt may put himself there with another SEC crown, but to make Fulmer out to be some big orange baffoon who backed his way into the success he has had is ridiculous. You say he has "failed miserably" yet he is one of the winningest coaches in the nation.

 

[hatvol96]

Actually the whole "whoever wins is the best coach" argument was not complex at all. Yes I expect more that 2 championships in 13 years and I never said that Richt, visor boy or Saban were not great coaches. Well, Richt has proven to be good coach but not great. How long did it take Fulmer to win his 2? My whole point is that when Richt, Miles, Meyer or whoever have got it done for 10-15 years that is the only point at which you can make a fair comparison. Spurrier is a better coach, as was Saban and Richt may put himself there with another SEC crown, but to make Fulmer out to be some big orange baffoon who backed his way into the success he has had is ridiculous. You say he has "failed miserably" yet he is one of the winningest coaches in the nation.

Again, context is always important. The "failed miserably" language came out of a discussion of my lack of criticism of Pearl and Delmonico. Fulmer was never mentioned. If you automatically think Fulmer when you hear "fail miserably," that's between you and your subconscious.

 

[holdemvol]

Again, context is always important. The "failed miserably" language came out of a discussion of my lack of criticism of Pearl and Delmonico. Fulmer was never mentioned. If you automatically think Fulmer when you hear "fail miserably," that's between you and your subconscious.

What would you call Fulmer's tenure then? It is quite obvious that you do not like the fact that he is UT's coach. So if you are a Bball coach you must "fail miserably" to feel the wrath of hatevol but if you are a football coach you just have to not win enough conference championships? I guess I am just confused because you seem to have gone from the Fulmer sucks and couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag camp to just....he is a good coach but not elite. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but I am quite sure I am not the only one that got that impression.

 

[hatvol96]

What would you call Fulmer's tenure then? It is quite obvious that you do not like the fact that he is UT's coach. So if you are a Bball coach you must "fail miserably" to feel the wrath of hatevol but if you are a football coach you just have to not win enough conference championships? I guess I am just confused because you seem to have gone from the Fulmer sucks and couldn't coach his way out of a wet paper bag camp to just....he is a good coach but not elite. I am not trying to put words in your mouth, but I am quite sure I am not the only one that got that impression.

I think Fulmer is a good coach who has long since outlasted his usefulness. The difference between the teams he puts on the field now and his teams of the mid to late '90s is startling. I don't care if the '03 team won 10 games, does anyone on this board think they could have played the '97 team within 3 touchdowns? Could the '04 team have even scored against the '98 team? Everyone here forgets that at the end of the day, college athletics are a business. When an employee starts to decline in performance, it is time to replace them. All this sentimental bunk about giving people chances is the kind of thinking that resulted in Oklahoma and USC spending most of the '90s mired in mediocrity or worse. I will admit, a portion of my commentary is colored by the fact I find the man personally contemptable.

 

[holdemvol]

I think Fulmer is a good coach who has long since outlasted his usefulness. The difference between the teams he puts on the field now and his teams of the mid to late '90s is startling. I don't care if the '03 team won 10 games, does anyone on this board think they could have played the '97 team within 3 touchdowns? Could the '04 team have even scored against the '98 team? Everyone here forgets that at the end of the day, college athletics are a business. When an employee starts to decline in performance, it is time to replace them. All this sentimental bunk about giving people chances is the kind of thinking that resulted in Oklahoma and USC spending most of the '90s mired in mediocrity or worse. I will admit, a portion of my commentary is colored by the fact I find the man personally contemptable.

Fair enough. I by the way feel that Fulmer deserves this year to right the ship, this year only and I think he will....it took too long for his eyes to be opened to some things but I think he is on the right track. I just get rustled when people put one year coaches above Fulmer after all he has accomplished.