Hear today on Tenn Sports Radio [re: UT admissions standards]

[therealUT]

That UT has the most stringent admissions ( besides Vandy) policy for athletes in the SEC and this is one reason Gruden was not interested. Alabama and Ole Miss have the lowest standards according to the report. As I have said before, until we get rid of Cheek ( FL Gator ) , our athletics will suffer. Check out our record in all of our sports programs since Cheek has been at UT and you will find it is the worst in school history. The ONLY decent program (male) we have right now is Swimming, yes Swimming!! Changes have to be made or we will continue to suffer at the bottom of the SEC in most sports.

Good. I would rather have UT known as a strong academic school than it have a strong athletic program.

 

[volberry]

Good. I would rather have UT known as a strong academic school than it have a strong athletic program.

well you got it.

 

[vol_in_ar]

well you got it.

not really...no one looks at Tennessee, and thinks strong academics...it's just another land grant state university
that's not to say the academic policies won't eventually change that, but we're not there yet

 

[volberry]

not really...no one looks at Tennessee, and thinks strong academics...it's just another land grant state university
that's not to say the academic policies won't eventually change that, but we're not there yet

i know lol. so it's ridiculous for people to go off about this acadeic thing.

 

[volberry]

and since when is academics on par with athletics anyway? a professor is a dime a dozen because the students still have to have the drive to educate themselves after the lecture! good coaches that rep a university well are like finding a needle in a haystack. yes education is important but it's not even an argument to make against athletics.

 

[Herman Hickman]

Good. I would rather have UT known as a strong academic school than it have a strong athletic program.

Then let us negotiate with the ACC for a transfer of conference and give up the notion that we can compete in the SEC as it exists now.

The standards for student-athlete admission should be set at the level of our peer institutions in the conference.

It does not follow that raising academic standards for student-athletes will somehow magically improve the academic reputation of the university as a whole. All it will accomplish is the decline of our athletic programs and, by extension, UTAD's ability to remain in the black as alumni, students, and fans stay home.

 

[BanditVol]

I think Hart mentioned something about that in his presser the other day. I thought he said something like "we are working on that" or "working to correct that" or something like that?

Two of the things he was talking about have been fixed, or at any rate changed. One, he got the $6M a year for 3 years back. Two, the BOT on November 9th changed the reporting structure of Hart. That is, Hart's chain of command has changed.

Other than those two items, I don't know anything solid, but I have heard that the tutoring center is under academic control and Hart wants at least some input from the AD side.

I have heard admissions also, but it does not seem to have affected us much. I heard, right or wrong, that in the last 5 years only one player cleared by the NCAA was refused admission to UT. But I have no idea if that's even true.

 

[douglas67]

Let's see, Pat Summitt won over a 1,000 Basketball games, 8 National Championships, and graduated 100% of her athletes. They never lowered the academic standard's for her teams like they do for Men's football, baseball, or basketball. Yet the three men's sports struggle to graduate 75% in all 3 sports. The payoff for lowering standard's could me much greater? Our Men's program has no excuses....One of the greatest coaches ever, done it for a long time and did the right way.

 

[majic73]

Wanna know why the U.S is having trouble competing in education? We value sports over academics. To the people who want a university to lower its standards to field a better football team, that is a ridiculous notion.

1. There is no disparity between athletic and academic people. i.e you can be smart and be athletic.

2. Education is the best thing a person can receive.

I love watching UT football as much as anyone. It is exciting when the team wins, and I feel terrible when they lose. It is not the most important thing in the world.

You speak in generalities ...
1. There is a disparity . You CAN be academic and athletic ...it doesnt mean that you WILL be. What is 'academic' anyways ? Do you agree with the numbers presnted for admission ? By Harvard standards ..only a minor percentage of UT students would be considered 'academic' What about at a juco or community college where countless kids are trying to improve their grades and credentials to have the opportunity to go to a university ? Are they academic ? Why even have the grading curve ? If all at the uni are 'academic' by an arbitrary definition and all are vetted by the admission process , wee should just trust them to excel.
2) Eduction is a great thing. There are 7 accepted 'intelligences' in the psychological community with some variance depending on who you ask. Athletic intel is one. Why even offer sports and require PE if not to educate this intellegence? Is a post grad job in sports , be it as a pro athlete , coach , trainer , manager , ect not worthy of this type of education? Pro athletes certainly make alot of cash . Alot of guys use their footballl education and translate well into the business and teaching community. So we really need to define what education means here.
3 ) One additional note ...back in the 70s and 80s you had alot of academic non qualifiers admitted to virtually every school to play football . Alot of thoe guys did really well with their college degrees. So they were not qualified to enter ...but were very qualified when they left college . It is pretty easy to weed out not performing students , probation , then dismissal. So is there a reason not to give kids a chance to better themselves academically and athletically other than looking at rankings and national averages of athletic performance ?

 

[therealUT]

Then let us negotiate with the ACC for a transfer of conference and give up the notion that we can compete in the SEC as it exists now.

Make an argument for why an athletic department that sets high academic standards cannot produce teams that compete. Good luck.

The standards for student-athlete admission should be set at the level of our peer institutions in the conference.

Do you have an argument for this?

I would argue that the anyone being denied acceptance and admission into any academic institution ought not to be denied in favor of someone with a less impressive academic record and less promising academic potential. When a prospective applicant to UT, with a 3.0 GPA and a 21 ACT score, is passed over in order to make room for an athlete (and moreover, an athlete that will be paid to attend the academic institution) that only has a 2.5 GPA and an ACT score of 18, there is a fundamental problem with the institution.

It does not follow that raising academic standards for student-athletes will somehow magically improve the academic reputation of the university as a whole.

Correct. I never stated it did. I stated that I would rather UT be a strong academic institution than be an institution with a great athletic department. The two are not mutually exclusive.

All it will accomplish is the decline of our athletic programs and, by extension, UTAD's ability to remain in the black as alumni, students, and fans stay home.

This only follows if you believe that schools with rigorous academic standards for athletes cannot compete. I am also not all that concerned about UTADs ability to remain in the black if the way they must remain in the black is by admitting students with little to no academic promise and potential.

 

[bigslk]

From the way some of this was explained to me,,,,lets just say your a JC athlete with a 3.0 gpa, if you go to Miss St and others in the SEC you get to keep that 3.0, if you go to UT you start at 0......It's easier to maintain a good average when you start out with 3.0 then to start out with a 0 and try to build it up...
Also were explaining that our 2.0 at UT may be the same equivalant as 1.75 gpa at some other schools...Something like this, Basically it's harder to maintain a 2.5 at UT then it is at other SEC schools....

And yes Gruden was wanting this back to the way it was pre 2005, I believe that was the year it was changed and the downfall of Fulmer.......

 

[therealUT]

From the way some of this was explained to me,,,,lets just say your a JC athlete with a 3.0 gpa, if you go to Miss St and others in the SEC you get to keep that 3.0, if you go to UT you start at 0......It's easier to maintain a good average when you start out with 3.0 then to start out with a 0 and try to build it up...
Also were explaining that our 2.0 at UT may be the same equivalant as 1.75 gpa at some other schools...Something like this, Basically it's harder to maintain a 2.5 at UT then it is at other SEC schools....

This post certainly demonstrates the need for higher academic standards.

Any student that transfers to UT transfers only their credits and not their GPA. As far as I am aware, the same happens at every university across the nation. Maybe the exceptions for football players at Bama exist, I have no idea. However, do you honestly think it is fair to make such exceptions? Do you think that Pelissippi State is as academically tough as UT? Do you think that UT is as tough as Duke? Do you think that someone who breezes through easy courses at Pelissippi ought to bring their grades with them to UT, while someone who struggles through tougher courses at UT ought to have to compete with the transfer for certain honors, distinctions, and jobs? Such a notion is absurd.

As for the question of difficulty in maintaining a 2.0 GPA: if someone cannot maintain a 2.0 GPA, they ought not be in college, and the college certainly should not be paying for their studies.

 

[UT Hill Man]

Vandy had a much easier schedule. With thier schedule we finish 8-4 or 7-5 at worst

That's stupid. There are 4 definite wins on Vandy's schedule, but, then you would have to assume we would have beat 9-3 Northwestern on the road, 6-6 Ole Miss on the road, and won our rematches with Vandy and Missouri (on the road).

 

[volberry]

This post certainly demonstrates the need for higher academic standards.

Any student that transfers to UT transfers only their credits and not their GPA. As far as I am aware, the same happens at every university across the nation. Maybe the exceptions for football players at Bama exist, I have no idea. However, do you honestly think it is fair to make such exceptions? Do you think that Pelissippi State is as academically tough as UT? Do you think that UT is as tough as Duke? Do you think that someone who breezes through easy courses at Pelissippi ought to bring their grades with them to UT, while someone who struggles through tougher courses at UT ought to have to compete with the transfer for certain honors, distinctions, and jobs? Such a notion is absurd.

As for the question of difficulty in maintaining a 2.0 GPA: if someone cannot maintain a 2.0 GPA, they ought not be in college, and the college certainly should not be paying for their studies.

That's where I disagree. When you play sports your gardes drop a full point during season and it's worse when you play multiple sports. That's why they need the tutors in the athletic programs. So if a person has a 2.0 they realy are a 3.0 student but because of the obligations to the program and they are getting free education but they have to do their job as an athlete, a 2.0 is understandable. That's why the coaches were in dispute when they wanted to raise the gpa to 2.5. You're destroying the athletic departments. People don't really understand how sports operate and what athletes go through at the University level.

 

[therealUT]

That's where I disagree. When you play sports your gardes drop a full point during season and it's worse when you play multiple sports. That's why they need the tutors in the athletic programs.

On the contrary, that is why the athletic requirements ought to be restricted by the academic institution. Academics take priority over athletics. Further, many students have demanding jobs and go to school full-time. Should the university provide free tutors to these students as well? Why not also grade them differently, since they have other demands?

So if a person has a 2.0 they realy are a 3.0 student but because of the obligations to the program and they are getting free education but they have to do their job as an athlete, a 2.0 is understandable.

The assertion that an athlete with a 2.0 is actually a 3.0 student is absurd and unfounded.

That's why the coaches were in dispute when they wanted to raise the gpa to 2.5. You're destroying the athletic departments.

If maintaining rigorous academic requirements at academic institutions destroys athletic departments at academic institutions, so be it.

Of course, your claim is once again unfounded, and there are academic institutions that maintain rigorous academic requirements and have thriving athletic departments.

People don't really understand how sports operate and what athletes go through at the University level.

Spare me the sympathy angle. Plenty of students have incredibly demanding lives and schedules. West Point is one of the most demanding academic institutions and the cadets have non-academic demands and obligations that are every bit as demanding, if not more demanding, than any scholar-athletes in the country.

 

[Ancient Reptile]

This link provides some graduation and academic info on FB players and other athletes on teams going to bowls. You might find it almost as interesting as talk radio. Several schools were good as expected. Several were bad as expected. Some surprises, both good and bad.

http://www.tidesport.org/Grad Rates/2012_FBS_Bowl_Study.pdf

 

[VolsRule]

if other SEC schools are allowed to admit players that UT cannot, the AD and coach need to get the rules changed for UT.

 

[volberry]

On the contrary, that is why the athletic requirements ought to be restricted by the academic institution. Academics take priority over athletics. Further, many students have demanding jobs and go to school full-time. Should the university provide free tutors to these students as well? Why not also grade them differently, since they have other demands?



The assertion that an athlete with a 2.0 is actually a 3.0 student is absurd and unfounded.



If maintaining rigorous academic requirements at academic institutions destroys athletic departments at academic institutions, so be it.

Of course, your claim is once again unfounded, and there are academic institutions that maintain rigorous academic requirements and have thriving athletic departments.



Spare me the sympathy angle. Plenty of students have incredibly demanding lives and schedules. West Point is one of the most demanding academic institutions and the cadets have non-academic demands and obligations that are every bit as demanding, if not more demanding, than any scholar-athletes in the country.

One thing is for sure...you'll never get hired as an ad...unless you interview with our administration.

 

[therealUT]

One thing is for sure...you'll never get hired as an ad...unless you interview with our administration.

Well, there goes that dream...

 

[volberry]

if other SEC schools are allowed to admit players that UT cannot, the AD and coach need to get the rules changed for UT.

exactly. obviously now isn't the time to get the big head.

 

[whobethis16]

I marched 4 years in the Pride (7 hours a week, plus gamedays, plus road games, plus other events) for 1 credit hour. I worked 20-30 hours a week while doing so. I also took full time hours, not the adjusted hours many athletes take. I was able to graduate with a 3.2 (under what it probably could/should have been) in 4 years. That is without a private tutor given to me. I busted my ass for what I got, and don't want lower standards to lower the value of the degree that I worked so hard to earn.

 

[wmcovol]

Well Something don't add up cause they had to dumb down the defense to one coverage-man to man the last several games

 

[volberry]

I marched 4 years in the Pride (7 hours a week, plus gamedays, plus road games, plus other events) for 1 credit hour. I worked 20-30 hours a week while doing so. I also took full time hours, not the adjusted hours many athletes take. I was able to graduate with a 3.2 (under what it probably could/should have been) in 4 years. That is without a private tutor given to me. I busted my ass for what I got, and don't want lower standards to lower the value of the degree that I worked so hard to earn.

How valuable does your degree stack up to vandy, bama, uf, ole miss, etc? We need to wake up around here.

 

[whobethis16]

How valuable does your degree stack up to vandy, bama, uf, ole miss, etc? We need to wake up around here.

Don't know the exact numbers, but you can bet I'll be pissed if the university decides winning a damn game is more important than the degrees it gives.

 

[Herman Hickman]

Make an argument for why an athletic department that sets high academic standards cannot produce teams that compete. Good luck.

See Vanderbilt, Tulane, and Sewanee.

Vanderbilt has only become competitive recently because they lowered their standards for student-athlete admissions.

Ron Mercer couldn't get into Vanderbilt in the 1990s. He would be welcomed in with open arms today.

Tulane and Sewanee both had far higher standards for student-athletes than the rest of the SEC. Tulane understood they couldn't compete and withdrew entirely. Sewanee decided they no longer wanted to compete and dropped down to non-scholarship football.

If this is where you wish Tennessee to go merely for the sake of a perceived (and false) national academic ranking, then you have every right to work for the change. Just don't be surprised when your athletic programs get rolled. This isn't the PAC 12. We can't set Stanford-level standards for student-athletes and get the results Stanford has been able to achieve in the weaker conference.

I would argue that the anyone being denied acceptance and admission into any academic institution ought not to be denied in favor of someone with a less impressive academic record and less promising academic potential. When a prospective applicant to UT, with a 3.0 GPA and a 21 ACT score, is passed over in order to make room for an athlete (and moreover, an athlete that will be paid to attend the academic institution) that only has a 2.5 GPA and an ACT score of 18, there is a fundamental problem with the institution.

You realize there is a difference between an academic scholarship and an athletic scholarship? The athletic scholarship is funded privately through donations. Not one dime comes from public funding resources.

No one at Tennessee with strong qualifying scores is being denied admission because a student with the same or lower qualifying scores is being offered an athletic grant-in-aid. The student-athlete meets the requirements set by Tennessee, the NCAA, and the SEC and has something to offer as a prospective player at the school. His scholarship is tied to his ability as a player and as such his admission does not take detract from the potential admission of other students who are not so gifted athletically.

I stated that I would rather UT be a strong academic institution than be an institution with a great athletic department. The two are not mutually exclusive.

You can have a great academic program and a great athletics program. You are right.

But you cannot set unrealistic standards for your athletics program when others in your conference are not following suit. Such standards limit the pool of athletes you can attract to your program, discourage the recruitment of quality coaches to your program, and detract from the ability of your sports to compete.

If you seek Stanford-level admissions requirements, then we need to be in a conference with others who either share or approach those admissions levels for student-athletes. The SEC is not the PAC-12 or the Big 10 in this regard and we should not pretend that our course of action will be readily followed by the rest.

This only follows if you believe that schools with rigorous academic standards for athletes cannot compete. I am also not all that concerned about UTADs ability to remain in the black if the way they must remain in the black is by admitting students with little to no academic promise and potential.

Drake Group thinking on full display. Who needs athletics? Who needs football? Let's rid ourselves of these pesky athletics and pretend we are Oxford on the Tennessee. That will surely enhance our academic reputation!

Why not? Your approach worked wonders for Tulane and Vanderbilt in the SEC. Why not Tennessee?

If UTAD does not remain in the black with healthy athletic programs, then the funding for those programs will have to either come from public sources or athletics scholarships and sports will have to be cut.

We are not Vanderbilt. We cannot afford to absorb a money-losing athletics department into the university's endowment. We must maintain a profit from our athletics department. You do that by winning and bringing support in from alumni, students, and fans.

This is a university that has produced the likes of Estes Kefauver, Howard Baker, John Cullum, Clarence Brown, and Dr. Richard Marius. James Agee, one of the great literary critics and writers of his time, attended Tennessee. They came here without requiring or needing rigorous entry-requirements to become successful in their careers. There are hundreds of thousands of Tennessee graduates just like them, successfully employed and contributing to communities around the world. We didn't need to become Stanford to give these people a launching point. We don't need the false ranking of a news-magazine to justify our worth as a university or the value of our alumni to our state and our nation.

We are also a University with an athletics department that has produced a Bobby Dodd, a Ray Graves, an R.A. Dickey, and a Charles Davis. Each of these men made a positive contribution to the reputation of the university in their post-college endeavors. Some of them you would not allow on our campus because they don't fit your perception of what a university should be. Yet our reputation and our public support as a university was built in large part by men and women who have made their name representing us in athletics.

On the mere belief that damaging athletics success somehow enhances the value of your diploma, you would have this university neuter its ability to compete and force it to become reliant on public funds for support.