Holy Trinity Discussion

#576
#576
Orangeslice13 said:
Correct.
So what does that mean in relation to Jesus and the law?
We established that
-salvation is and has always been by believing G-d. (Faith/repentance) for those who seek it of G-d
-Jesus says that the law doesn’t pass until heaven and earth pass away
-Paul says that you don’t know what sin is without the law.

Here’s a big hint.
What does Paul saw was taken away and nailed to the cross?
(It wasn’t the law.)

What did Jesus do that made him the Passover lamb?
Click to expand...
the sins of the world. He who knew no sin became sin for us. His death gave victory over sin and the grave (eternal separation from God). His blood sacrifice accomplished what the blood of bulls and goats could not(OT) ?
 
#577
#577
Orangeslice13 said:
Have that conversation with any “educated “ Christian preacher. They are absolutely taught that Enoch isn’t scripture and use all the reasoning that should exclude Hebrews.
Click to expand...

Of course they're taught that it isn't scripture. There is quite a lot of Jewish and Christian literature that is not in the Bible. Just because a document isn't considered sacred doesn't mean that's it's de facto heretical.
 
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#578
#578
Orangeslice13 said:
Traditional?
You mean the things G-d called forever?

Things Jesus and the 12 never did

-Easter
-Christmas
-Sunday church
-baptism required salvation.
Click to expand...
I'd have to differ here. While I will say baptism as just an act is not salvation, I would also say faith without repsonse is also not salvation.

Baptism is a act of repsonse to the faith in and acceptance of the Good News. And the vehicle for the HS to enter and dwell in you. Jesus did receive John's baptism as an example possibly that it is an important thing to do.

There are differing opinions on whether or not the 12 received a christian baptism verses John's baptism. It is not explicitly stated, but some accept it is likely they may have been at pentacost with the others. Some accept that Jesus had already bestowed the HS to the 12 so that they could spread hte good news and perform the miracles as well. However, I have not seen any instance in the NT after Jesus' death where the HS descended on anyone without baptism occuring.

I will say there are verses that say those who bleieve on me will be saved. And Baptism is not mentioned specifically in that verse. There are also verse that say be baptised for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of hte holy spirit.

John 3:5 ESV
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:41 ESV
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Mark 16:16 ESV
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 22:16 ESV
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Matthew 28:19-20 ESV
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Colossians 2:12 ESV
Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Luke 3:21-22 ESV
Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

Romans 6:4 ESV
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Acts 10:47 ESV
“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Acts 8:12 ESV
But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


Point being, faith, repentance, acceptance, and baptism all seem to be intertwined into salvation and the dwelling of the holy spirit. I have never believed that any one independent act is salvation, but rather the responding to the call of the whole. As for the specific act of baptism itself in all of this, it is the going down into death with Christ to wash away sins and arising new in Him, as he also rose from death.
 
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#579
#579
LouderVol said:
how would they have done Easter? I guess it depends on what you mean by "doing" it.
his crucifiction and return to life was definitely a big thing that they made note of.
Click to expand...

It’s called Passover.
The feast that Messiah not only took part in but fulfilled.


The prescribed feast of Torah all have prophetic meaning.
Traditional things like Hanukkah , Easter, and Christmas will all be irrelevant and forgotten when Messiah returns

If you believe that prophecy stuff.
 
#581
#581
GVF said:
But...Faith without repsonse is just an idea really.

I have faith that there is gas at the pump. But, if I don't act on that faith, my tank stays empty. (I'm not talking about works. We know works alone are not a vehicle to God in the afterlife).

With Faith must come a repsonse. An acceptance of Salvation. An symbolic act of that acceptance. A committment to receive God cause you know you only have perfection with Him.

"Come unto me all ye that labor and I will give you rest."

"See, here is water, what hindereth me from being baptized. And they went down into the water and he was baptized."

"Those who accepted his message were baptized, and about three thousand were added to their number that day."
Click to expand...
How does the scripture define faith?
Your faith in Gas doesn’t mean anything before G-d

16 However, they did not all heed the [k]good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Once again Torah being taught to those who don’t know
 
#583
#583
GVF said:
Thought you might. You're not all sharp teeth.
Click to expand...
I just give back what is given to me most times.
You’ve always been respectful in of conversations. What you have sewn you will surely reap.
You deserve respect so I strive to give it to you.
 
#584
#584
OrangeTsar said:
Because they were excluded from almost all of the trade guilds in Middle Ages Europe. They started taking the only careers open to them and then it got passed down to succeeding generations. Same to a lesser extent with entertainment and academia. You work the jobs you can get.
Click to expand...
Outstanding.
Now would you like to hear how we brought some of the Jew hatred on by our behavior?
 
#587
#587
tdawgs said:
the sins of the world. He who knew no sin became sin for us. His death gave victory over sin and the grave (eternal separation from God). His blood sacrifice accomplished what the blood of bulls and goats could not(OT) ?
Click to expand...
I’ll be back to this.
Not a short answer
 
#589
#589
GVF said:
I'd have to differ here. While I will say baptism as just an act is not salvation, I would also say faith without repsonse is also not salvation.

Baptism is a act of repsonse to the faith in and acceptance of the Good News. And the vehicle for the HS to enter and dwell in you. Jesus did receive John's baptism as an example possibly that it is an important thing to do.

There are differing opinions on whether or not the 12 received a christian baptism verses John's baptism. It is not explicitly stated, but some accept it is likely they may have been at pentacost with the others. Some accept that Jesus had already bestowed the HS to the 12 so that they could spread hte good news and perform the miracles as well. However, I have not seen any instance in the NT after Jesus' death where the HS descended on anyone without baptism occuring.

I will say there are verses that say those who bleieve on me will be saved. And Baptism is not mentioned specifically in that verse. There are also verse that say be baptised for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of hte holy spirit.

John 3:5 ESV
Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Acts 2:41 ESV
So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls.

Mark 16:16 ESV
Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

Acts 22:16 ESV
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Matthew 28:19-20 ESV
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Colossians 2:12 ESV
Having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.

Luke 3:21-22 ESV
Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying, the heavens were opened, and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form, like a dove; and a voice came from heaven, “You are my beloved Son; with you I am well pleased.”

Romans 6:4 ESV
We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

Acts 10:47 ESV
“Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

Acts 8:12 ESV
But when they believed Philip as he preached good news about the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.


Point being, faith, repentance, acceptance, and baptism all seem to be intertwined into salvation and the dwelling of the holy spirit. I have never believed that any one independent act is salvation, but rather the responding to the call of the whole. As for the specific act of baptism itself in all of this, it is the going down into death with Christ to wash away sins and arising new in Him, as he also rose from death.
Click to expand...
We beat that to death so we won’t do that again
One guy got banned over it.
I apologize for bringing it up.


I know believers that make the same arguments about all their “rules”
 
#591
#591
Orangeslice13 said:
Pick one.
Click to expand...
someone else mentioned the bans from most trades, and the ghettos, so I won't touch them.

they were relatively stable economically, thus had money to lend.
because they typically neutral to local political issues they would lend to anyone, thus anyone could do business with them.
the interconnectedness of Jews allowed them to facilitate IOUs/lines of credits far more reliably than other institutions. Basically any jew would recognize/validate another Jews IOU or established line of credit. something that pretty much no institution could really do until the industrial revolution. The Mongols had a pretty decent system while their empire lasted, it made use of established Jewish "banks".
one of the common reasons was just because they could be found in pretty much every nation they became the de facto guild of bankers.
their neutrality also made them much more trustworthy for outsiders to use.
depending on the "creed" of the Jews there bans or limits on the amount of interest they would charge, and just the general terms of the loans. circles back to their perceived trustworthiness.
the closed-ness of Jewish culture also ensured that the money stayed in the family much more than the general European population, even amongst nobles.
 
#592
#592
LouderVol said:
someone else mentioned the bans from most trades, and the ghettos, so I won't touch them.

they were relatively stable economically, thus had money to lend.
because they typically neutral to local political issues they would lend to anyone, thus anyone could do business with them.
the interconnectedness of Jews allowed them to facilitate IOUs/lines of credits far more reliably than other institutions. Basically any jew would recognize/validate another Jews IOU or established line of credit. something that pretty much no institution could really do until the industrial revolution. The Mongols had a pretty decent system while their empire lasted, it made use of established Jewish "banks".
one of the common reasons was just because they could be found in pretty much every nation they became the de facto guild of bankers.
their neutrality also made them much more trustworthy for outsiders to use.
depending on the "creed" of the Jews there bans or limits on the amount of interest they would charge, and just the general terms of the loans. circles back to their perceived trustworthiness.
the closed-ness of Jewish culture also ensured that the money stayed in the family much more than the general European population, even amongst nobles.
Click to expand...
We’ve talked other places about how the US causes some of the hate with foreign policy.

Well

My people are guilty of some of that ourselves.
Not just with banking….”neither lender nor borrowers be” …..oops but in other areas as well. For example, Pork is not food according to Torah. So instead of respecting that some of my people would raise pork to sell to the gentiles. Specifically the Christians. Their understanding was that if a Christian didn’t confess that they were sinning then those sins were not forgiven so they were intentionally and covertly causing (in their minds) a situation where Christians were not saved. Think about how horrible that is. “I know you’re in error but instead of helping you I’m going to make sure you’re cast out”. Clearly that’s not the view of all of my people but it was enough for me to look at it and think “that’s a good reason to hate us”


But I digress
 
#593
#593
Orangeslice13 said:
How does the scripture define faith?
Your faith in Gas doesn’t mean anything before G-d

16 However, they did not all heed the [k]good news; for Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Once again Torah being taught to those who don’t know
Click to expand...
Also Romans 10:17. NKJV
So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God

Not sure what the angle is, but hearing would precede faith by default.
 
#594
#594
Orangeslice13 said:
Then why does it return?
And when did G-s say Passover was not to be celebrated
Click to expand...
Never said he said not to.

However, Christ as the Lamb provided a one time sacrifice for all mankind, forever. Embracing, accepting, and having faith in that is up to hte individual.
 
#595
#595
Orangeslice13 said:
I just give back what is given to me most times.
You’ve always been respectful in of conversations. What you have sewn you will surely reap.
You deserve respect so I strive to give it to you.
Click to expand...
Atleast you understand my dry humor.
 
#596
#596
Orangeslice13 said:
We beat that to death so we won’t do that again
One guy got banned over it.
I apologize for bringing it up.


I know believers that make the same arguments about all their “rules”
Click to expand...
Rules...ha.

When it gets canned like that is why we have so many problems, especially in discussions.

One will always fail rules. One will always be depressed cause they break rules.

Live by faith. Enjoy freedom by grace.
 
#597
#597
Orangeslice13 said:
We beat that to death so we won’t do that again
One guy got banned over it.
I apologize for bringing it up.


I know believers that make the same arguments about all their “rules”
Click to expand...
No prob. I just see enough on the topic in scripture to accept the meaning and purpose of it for me.

I forgot about the guy that got banned. Must have been CoC like me. Having the dad I did, I just know better than to tell someone else they're wrong. Wisdom and knowledge comes from study, and we all read differently. Saying you're wrong for reading something different than me...makes me wrong according to several passages in Matthew I believe.
 
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#598
#598
bamawriter said:
Of course they're taught that it isn't scripture. There is quite a lot of Jewish and Christian literature that is not in the Bible. Just because a document isn't considered sacred doesn't mean that's it's de facto heretical.
Click to expand...
It does if you start quoting it as having the same authority as scripture. Just like Christians read the works of the Church Father’s from the generation after the apostles. They give a lot of insight and guidance; but they are seen as not authoritative.
 
#599
#599
GVF said:
Never said he said not to.

However, Christ as the Lamb provided a one time sacrifice for all mankind, forever. Embracing, accepting, and having faith in that is up to hte individual.
Click to expand...
It comes down to….for me…..why not celebrate what Messiah did on the Holiday we are asked to celebrate by G-d as opposed to ignoring it and making one of our own and incorporating some horrible pagan practices into it and calling it Easter. I mean we know how much G-d loves it when we include paganism and say it’s for him. He was really excited about that golden calf…”this is YAWH” incident.

lol
 
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