Homelessness in Portland

[Vol8188]

I'm not Libertarian, I'm libertarian, and I'm advocating UBI over government bloat. This is a change that would promote liberty in a broad sense (not just liberty from government) and rein in big government.

You know how conservatives and libertarians like school voucher programs? Well, this is a voucher program for almost everything the federal government does.

UBI would become the greatest of all government bloat. You’re allowing people to directly vote on how much they will receive

 

[DonjoVol]

I'm not Libertarian, I'm libertarian, and I'm advocating UBI over government bloat. This is a change that would promote liberty in a broad sense (not just liberty from government) and rein in big government.

You know how conservatives and libertarians like school voucher programs? Well, this is a voucher program for almost everything the federal government does.

Imagine thinking that my push ITT for ending the war on drugs and reducing big government disqualifies me from being a libertarian.

It's not a voucher program. It is an entitlement program which would cause many people to not want to seek employment. The idea for UBI is trash.

 

[DonjoVol]

UBI is trying to head off a problem that is coming. The issue, imo, is that it actually speeds up the problem, and will like all government programs not achieve it's intended goals. The libertarian argument is like huff said. Remove 90% of the government to replace with UBI. So you have less government bureaucracy but the same amount of spending.

I would actually see the democrat dream of "affordable housing for all" coming before I would UBI.

 

[DonjoVol]

I'm not Libertarian, I'm libertarian, and I'm advocating UBI over government bloat. This is a change that would promote liberty in a broad sense (not just liberty from government) and rein in big government.

You know how conservatives and libertarians like school voucher programs? Well, this is a voucher program for almost everything the federal government does.

Imagine thinking that my push ITT for ending the war on drugs and reducing big government disqualifies me from being a libertarian.

And UBI is not a libertarian ideal. Unless this is a new left libertarian or libertarian Marxism idea that I'm unaware of.

 

[n_huffhines]

UBI is trying to head off a problem that is coming. The issue, imo, is that it actually speeds up the problem, and will like all government programs not achieve it's intended goals. The libertarian argument is like huff said. Remove 90% of the government to replace with UBI. So you have less government bureaucracy but the same amount of spending.

I don't want the same amount of spending. That's not how school vouchers work, and that's not how I would set this up.

This is pie in the sky stuff, we're talking. The powers that be are never going to give up their system of spoils, but that's exactly why it would save us $.

 

[n_huffhines]

And UBI is not a libertarian ideal. Unless this is a new left libertarian or libertarian Marxism idea that I'm unaware of.

Who said it was an ideal? All I'm saying this setup is more libertarian than our current setup, and IDK how I can be anymore clear about this. Maybe re-read everything twice before your next response.

 

[Vol8188]

And UBI is not a libertarian ideal. Unless this is a new left libertarian or libertarian Marxism idea that I'm unaware of.

We’ve already been through your poor understanding of libertarianism given your lack of understanding of business/employee relationships

 

[Vol8188]

Who said it was an ideal? All I'm saying this setup is more libertarian than our current setup, and IDK how I can be anymore clear about this. Maybe re-read everything twice before your next response.

Friedman

 

[LouderVol]

I don't think this is true at all. Minimum wage is a problem primarily because it doesn't really help the people we want it to help and causes unemployment, not because it has potential inflationary effects. UBI goes right to the people it intends to help and does not cause unemployment. The market would have to adjust to all these new renters, but it's a good problem to have. The market will sort it out.



Why do you think UBI will result in a smaller work force? One reason our work force has problems is that we pay people not to work. In this system, we pay people a little bit regardless. So there is no disincentive to not work.

Look at what happened in Covid. We paid people to not work, so now they dont want to go back.

If rent, food, etc is covered why work? What is going to push people to work? Most Americans are fat, dumb, and lazy, that wont go away because they get a grand a month from the government. It's still just welfare. So you will have the exact same people feeding off the work of others, but now they can blow their UBI checks on whatever they want.

 

[Vol8188]

I will say one benefit of ubi is that it would not discourage marriage/coupling the way our current system does.

But the inability to control it would doom it

 

[n_huffhines]

Look at what happened in Covid. We paid people to not work, so now they dont want to go back.

If rent, food, etc is covered why work? What is going to push people to work? Most Americans are fat, dumb, and lazy, that wont go away because they get a grand a month from the government. It's still just welfare. So you will have the exact same people feeding off the work of others, but now they can blow their UBI checks on whatever they want.

What do you mean by this? Total employment is higher right now than it was in 2019.

I guess I have a higher opinion of Americans than you.

I wouldn't set up UBI to an amount of $ that makes it easy to cover your expenses. I'd set it up so that someone would have to be very frugal to survive off just UBI. So say it's $10/k year, I see no reason why American adults wouldn't see a strong incentive to work, and at least triple their income. Most of them would be at least quintupling it and getting benefits.

 

[Vol8188]

What do you mean by this? Total employment is higher right now than it was in 2019.

I guess I have a higher opinion of Americans than you.

I wouldn't set up UBI to an amount of $ that makes it easy to cover your expenses. I'd set it up so that someone would have to be very frugal to survive off just UBI. So say it's $10/k year, I see no reason why American adults wouldn't see a strong incentive to work, and at least triple their income.

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Any money creates a desire to not work, despite work being in our best interest as both individuals and societies. More negative incentive structures is not the answer

If you really thought so highly of Americans, you would expect voluntary charity to handle these things, not government

 

[LouderVol]

What do you mean by this? Total employment is higher right now than it was in 2019.

I guess I have a higher opinion of Americans than you.

I wouldn't set up UBI to an amount of $ that makes it easy to cover your expenses. I'd set it up so that someone would have to be very frugal to survive off just UBI. So say it's $10/k year, I see no reason why American adults wouldn't see a strong incentive to work, and at least triple their income. Most of them would be at least quintupling it and getting benefits.

View attachment 481679

Because Americans dont want to work. Heck I dont want to work.

We arent seeing the same payments going out, so if anything your chart backs me up. Once the money dried up more people had to go back to work.

Although I will say Kemp is apparently going to be sending out some more covid checks, one of the few things by him I have had a big problem with.

 

[Wireless1]

There’s a handful of people on VN that needs treatment as well.

politely understated

 

[DonjoVol]

We’ve already been through your poor understanding of libertarianism given your lack of understanding of business/employee relationships

And once again you have a poor understanding of libertarianism. The individual right comes first. Businesses trying to require the covid vaccine are trying to trample on someone's individual rights. Once again I'm going to refer you to the preamble and sections 1.0 and 1.1 of the Libertarian Party platform.

I'm also going to ask you to share with the forum the ideals of Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker who are often considered the founders of libertarianism.

What you are advocating for is some weird form of corporate totalitarianism.

 

[DonjoVol]

Who said it was an ideal? All I'm saying this setup is more libertarian than our current setup, and IDK how I can be anymore clear about this. Maybe re-read everything twice before your next response.

It's not a libertarian ideal. What you are doing is trying to pass off your "democrat" or left wing ideals as libertarian. People aren't buying it.

 

[C-south]

Rely on the kindness of strangers, city/county government, and what's left of state government.

Honestly, if there is UBI and no war on drugs, how are you homeless? You're probably a mental health case or mentally impaired in some way, which is a separate problem.

My god.

 

[Godfatha]

It's not a libertarian ideal. What you are doing is trying to pass off your "democrat" or left wing ideals as libertarian. People aren't buying it.

Some are just libertarian to single issues like drug enforcement or abortion but shed libertarianism when it’s not their pet cause

 

[Vol8188]

And once again you have a poor understanding of libertarianism. The individual right comes first. Businesses trying to require the covid vaccine are trying to trample on someone's individual rights. Once again I'm going to refer you to the preamble and sections 1.0 and 1.1 of the Libertarian Party platform.

I'm also going to ask you to share with the forum the ideals of Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker who are often considered the founders of libertarianism.

What you are advocating for is some weird form of corporate totalitarianism.

The business owner is an individual. The business owner has a right to employee or not employee whoever they wish. Idk how you don’t get that

 

[hog88]

And once again you have a poor understanding of libertarianism. The individual right comes first. Businesses trying to require the covid vaccine are trying to trample on someone's individual rights. Once again I'm going to refer you to the preamble and sections 1.0 and 1.1 of the Libertarian Party platform.

I'm also going to ask you to share with the forum the ideals of Lysander Spooner and Benjamin Tucker who are often considered the founders of libertarianism.

What you are advocating for is some weird form of corporate totalitarianism.

You believe in individual rights just not the right of the individual to conduct his business as he sees fit. Is that big L or little l libertarianism?

 

[Vol8188]

My god.

I’d really love to know how he thinks the war on drugs creates homelessness

 

[hog88]

I’d really love to know how he thinks the war on drugs creates homelessness

Many apartment or other rental property management companies have a zero tolerance policy for felony convictions and past drug convictions even if misdemeanors within so many years. So a young dumb kid mistake can lead to a lifetime or decade of trouble finding a place to live.

 

[DonjoVol]

You believe in individual rights just not the right of the individual to conduct his business as he sees fit. Is that big L or little l libertarianism?

So you're for racial segregation in businesses?

 

[Vol423]

What do you mean by this? Total employment is higher right now than it was in 2019.

I guess I have a higher opinion of Americans than you.

I wouldn't set up UBI to an amount of $ that makes it easy to cover your expenses. I'd set it up so that someone would have to be very frugal to survive off just UBI. So say it's $10/k year, I see no reason why American adults wouldn't see a strong incentive to work, and at least triple their income. Most of them would be at least quintupling it and getting benefits.

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There are millions more people in the country now than in 2019 thanks to Biden's "closed border" policy.

 

[Vol8188]

Many apartment or other rental property management companies have a zero tolerance policy for felony convictions and past drug convictions even if misdemeanors within so many years. So a young dumb kid mistake can lead to a lifetime or decade of trouble finding a place to live.

That’s a fair point I didn’t consider