Homosexuals in the military demand special privileges

But then who enforces the terms of a contract?

You're opening a whole can of worms.

Short answer is that in the absence of government, you would have entities that guarantee your reputation. Sort of like an insurance model where you pay premiums, and they vouch for you in the market place. If you behave poorly your premiums go up. Nobody will hire you if you have a bad reputation and no representation, so everyone has an incentive (even moreso than now) to behave well. You stiff your wife on alimony and potential employers, business partners, and maybe even Wal-Mart will not do business with you.
 
I am for civil unions. Marriage has two parts. Legal and that established by the church. Unfortunately, that has never been spelled out before because I guess we never thought that it would get to this. Civil Unions are fine, just don't call them marriage.

So you really care that much about a simple word? Is it really that important? Could you not add a modifier to your precious word and call it "religious marriage" or "Christian marriage"?

Sorry, but if you aren't loyal to the U.S. and what it stands for (or used to stand for before it didn't stand for anything), you really should consider a major relocation. French Canada or France would love to have you.

Was there any point in your life where you actually took the pledge of allegiance seriously? I am pretty sure none of my classmates ever did.

Really? Barry has been trying to legislate acceptance of homosexuality since he has been in office. The removal of don't ask don't tell in the military is a fine example. Why is it important in the military to be able to proclaim to the world that you are gay? Being able to stand up and say I am gay and proud somehow makes you a better soldier? I think not. Don't ask Don't tell was tolerance, removal is legislating acceptance.

You don't seriously believe this do you?

Most gays in the military probably don't come out even with the repeat of don't ask, don't tell.

Oh by the way, what is wrong with acceptance of homosexuality?
 
How does this doom our country and define MORAL? Not being sarcastic either I really want to know.

One of countless examples of the traditional acceptable behavior being turned upside down to accomodate a social fringe. These little thinks pile up and then bam, you end up with a 2005 season.
 
You're opening a whole can of worms.

Short answer is that in the absence of government, you would have entities that guarantee your reputation. Sort of like an insurance model where you pay premiums, and they vouch for you in the market place. If you behave poorly your premiums go up. Nobody will hire you if you have a bad reputation and no representation, so everyone has an incentive (even moreso than now) to behave well. You stiff your wife on alimony and potential employers, business partners, and maybe even Wal-Mart will not do business with you.


You can't seriously believe that society, any society, would behave like this. Businesses do not, have not, will not, and should not care about the social graces or even criminal activity of their clients so long as those activities do not directly and adversely affect them.
 
You can't seriously believe that society, any society, would behave like this. Businesses do not, have not, will not, and should not care about the social graces or even criminal activity of their clients so long as those activities do not directly and adversely affect them.

Maybe we are in need of some clarification.

This is how it works....

You have a reputation score/rating, similar to how a credit rating works. Based on your score you pay a certain premium for a firm to "vouch" for you. Say they vouch for you to help you acquire a lease on a property...if you trash the place and breach the contract you will be held accountable.

If you do not pay, your reputation firm will pay. They will raise your premiums. If you do not pay the premiums they will not represent you. If you go to another firm, they will know your reputation history and charge high rates as well. If you choose not to pay for representation you will be very limited in your interactions in the marketplace.

And if this isn't obvious by now, the reputation firm will pay for what you neglect because their whole business is based on their own good reputation.

Reputation is a powerful thing. Even people on this anonymous message board tend to care about their reputations. When profits become dependent on reputation it becomes that much more powerful of an incentive to behave.
 
Maybe we are in need of some clarification.

This is how it works....

You have a reputation score/rating, similar to how a credit rating works. Based on your score you pay a certain premium for a firm to "vouch" for you. Say they vouch for you to help you acquire a lease on a property...if you trash the place and breach the contract you will be held accountable.

If you do not pay, your reputation firm will pay. They will raise your premiums. If you do not pay the premiums they will not represent you. If you go to another firm, they will know your reputation history and charge high rates as well. If you choose not to pay for representation you will be very limited in your interactions in the marketplace.

And if this isn't obvious by now, the reputation firm will pay for what you neglect because their whole business is based on their own good reputation.

Reputation is a powerful thing. Even people on this anonymous message board tend to care about their reputations. When profits become dependent on reputation it becomes that much more powerful of an incentive to behave.

Uh huh. Good look getting that off the ground. Why don't you pitch that on Shark Tank? I bet someone will see the genius of it.
 
Maybe we are in need of some clarification.

This is how it works....

You have a reputation score/rating, similar to how a credit rating works. Based on your score you pay a certain premium for a firm to "vouch" for you. Say they vouch for you to help you acquire a lease on a property...if you trash the place and breach the contract you will be held accountable.

If you do not pay, your reputation firm will pay. They will raise your premiums. If you do not pay the premiums they will not represent you. If you go to another firm, they will know your reputation history and charge high rates as well. If you choose not to pay for representation you will be very limited in your interactions in the marketplace.

And if this isn't obvious by now, the reputation firm will pay for what you neglect because their whole business is based on their own good reputation.

Reputation is a powerful thing. Even people on this anonymous message board tend to care about their reputations. When profits become dependent on reputation it becomes that much more powerful of an incentive to behave.

Your proposition is like communism; great in theory, horrible in practice.
 
Maybe we are in need of some clarification.

This is how it works....

You have a reputation score/rating, similar to how a credit rating works. Based on your score you pay a certain premium for a firm to "vouch" for you. Say they vouch for you to help you acquire a lease on a property...if you trash the place and breach the contract you will be held accountable.

If you do not pay, your reputation firm will pay. They will raise your premiums. If you do not pay the premiums they will not represent you. If you go to another firm, they will know your reputation history and charge high rates as well. If you choose not to pay for representation you will be very limited in your interactions in the marketplace.

And if this isn't obvious by now, the reputation firm will pay for what you neglect because their whole business is based on their own good reputation.

Reputation is a powerful thing. Even people on this anonymous message board tend to care about their reputations. When profits become dependent on reputation it becomes that much more powerful of an incentive to behave.

This sounds like some type of neo-Nozick fantasy. I do have a few questions:

1. How do you initially encourage/persuade individuals to buy into this system?

2. How do you prevent individuals from cheating?

There certainly would be times when two individuals/entities in this system saw that it was to their best interest to neglect, discard the rating system; and, in doing so, they could quite possibly gain a huge and unfair competitive advantage. I fail to see how this system would be able to deal with the situation.

And, yes, this is the same exact critique that is leveled at pure Socialism.
 
It works in the absence of government. Try to keep up.

I don't think I've fallen behind. In world without government (we'll suspend all reality for a moment), how do you get such a system started?

I think you would have done well, for a while, in the 60s and 70s when communes were so popular.
 
This sounds like some type of neo-Nozick fantasy. I do have a few questions:

1. How do you initially encourage/persuade individuals to buy into this system?

2. How do you prevent individuals from cheating?

There certainly would be times when two individuals/entities in this system saw that it was to their best interest to neglect, discard the rating system; and, in doing so, they could quite possibly gain a huge and unfair competitive advantage. I fail to see how this system would be able to deal with the situation.

And, yes, this is the same exact critique that is leveled at pure Socialism.

(1) I think in the absence of government the need becomes so strong there will be clear supply and demand. I don't think you had to persuade people to buy into a credit score system, it just made sense. If you are a landlord and you can get a company that will vouch for a renter at no cost to you, forget about checking credit score, background check, etc. It's a no-brainer.

(2) Reputations will prevent people from cheating. It won't prevent everyone from cheating. Neither does government with their attempts at contract enforcement. I think this would actually be a stronger incentive to pay off debt than we have today. Bankruptcy is an easy out. It won't perfectly prevent cheating, but I think it would be a better system.
 
I don't think I've fallen behind. In world without government (we'll suspend all reality for a moment), how do you get such a system started?

I think you would have done well, for a while, in the 60s and 70s when communes were so popular.

Free market, dude. Nobody is in charge. Needs arise and businesses fulfill those needs. That's how the "real world" works for a large majority of the goods and services we enjoy. What I am proposing is that we have the free market take on all those needs, not just the large majority.

Maybe I can better answer your question if you tell me why you think it wouldn't get started without oversight?
 
(1) I think in the absence of government the need becomes so strong there will be clear supply and demand. I don't think you had to persuade people to buy into a credit score system, it just made sense. If you are a landlord and you can get a company that will vouch for a renter at no cost to you, forget about checking credit score, background check, etc. It's a no-brainer.

I do not know that it is such a no-brainer. Say you are a large corporation that sells to everyone. Now, someone introduces this idea. Now, to play along, you must voluntarily restrict your own consumer base? It does not seem as though there would be any incentive for a seller to do so. The only incentive that would work would be if there was some type of collective, group decision to adopt this method; but, that just provides a longer route to the question of what would be each individual seller's incentive to join the group? I just fail to see any motivating force behind the initial idea.

(2) Reputations will prevent people from cheating. It won't prevent everyone from cheating. Neither does government with their attempts at contract enforcement. I think this would actually be a stronger incentive to pay off debt than we have today. Bankruptcy is an easy out. It won't perfectly prevent cheating, but I think it would be a better system.

Is this a closed system or an open system?
 
Free market, dude. Nobody is in charge. Needs arise and businesses fulfill those needs. That's how the "real world" works for a large majority of the goods and services we enjoy. What I am proposing is that we have the free market take on all those needs, not just the large majority.

Maybe I can better answer your question if you tell me why you think it wouldn't get started without oversight?

Because nothing of the sort ever comes about without "oversight".

What, in your experience, would lead you to believe that in a world without "government" that everyone will suddenly see the need to play nice and come together to erect a system to the benefit of all versus those with the most strength (arms) and influence (money or equivalent) fighting tooth and nail for control of as much as they can conquer?
 
Because nothing of the sort ever comes about without "oversight".

What, in your experience, would lead you to believe that in a world without "government" that everyone will suddenly see the need to play nice and come together to erect a system to the benefit of all versus those with the most strength (arms) and influence (money or equivalent) fighting tooth and nail for control of as much as they can conquer?

I think the latter is quite possible. I just do not see the system proposed by Huff as having any motivating force.
 
Because nothing of the sort ever comes about without "oversight".

What, in your experience, would lead you to believe that in a world without "government" that everyone will suddenly see the need to play nice and come together to erect a system to the benefit of all versus those with the most strength (arms) and influence (money or equivalent) fighting tooth and nail for control of as much as they can conquer?

You think government is what makes us behave? Ever heard of the old west? That's the closest thing we've had to anarchy in US history. I've got news for you...Hollywood gets it all wrong. The most dangerous cities, like Tombstone, had lower murder rates than Baltimore does today. Dodge City, I believe, for many years had no sheriff. The city knew no murder until after a sheriff was elected.

Government creates a violent black market for drugs that results in more murder that would exist in the absence of government. Then they point to all the violence they created and justify their own existence.

Human beings are generally good. I don't trust them when they are given power of force of others. That is what government is. Individuals may not exactly "play nice" all the time, but I'm willing to bet in the absence of government there is less violent death. Think about it. No WWI. No WWII. etc. How could there possibly be enough murder to surpass the death toll government creates.

I'll address TRUT's comments later. Gotta run to a birthday party.
 
You think government is what makes us behave? Ever heard of the old west? That's the closest thing we've had to anarchy in US history. I've got news for you...Hollywood gets it all wrong. The most dangerous cities, like Tombstone, had lower murder rates than Baltimore does today. Dodge City, I believe, for many years had no sheriff. The city knew no murder until after a sheriff was elected.

Government creates a violent black market for drugs that results in more murder that would exist in the absence of government. .


No government in Somalia..I here its quit peaceful there.
 
You think government is what makes us behave?

Doesn't make me behave. But you're dead effing wrong if you don't think it keeps many not-so-nice folks from kicking your ass and taking your nickels.


Ever heard of the old west? That's the closest thing we've had to anarchy in US history. I've got news for you...Hollywood gets it all wrong. The most dangerous cities, like Tombstone, had lower murder rates than Baltimore does today. Dodge City, I believe, for many years had no sheriff. The city knew no murder until after a sheriff was elected.

Different place, different time. There were very, very few people, spread out over a huge area, most of whom had little or nothing worth taking. If there was something worth taking, like water rights or mining interests, blood was shed and those things were taken. The rich and powerful took all they wanted. The common folk didn't have anything worth taking.

Government creates a violent black market for drugs that results in more murder that would exist in the absence of government. Then they point to all the violence they created and justify their own existence.

Though this seems to me to be completely off topic, I agree with you about drug laws.

Human beings are generally good. I don't trust them when they are given power of force of others. That is what government is.

No, not really. Government and change of government, is usually about people taking power. Powerful people tend to take power whether you want them to or not.

Individuals may not exactly "play nice" all the time, but I'm willing to bet in the absence of government there is less violent death. Think about it. No WWI. No WWII. etc. How could there possibly be enough murder to surpass the death toll government creates.

I'll address TRUT's comments later. Gotta run to a birthday party.

I think you're missing the point. "Government", like life itself, abhors a vacuum. What relatively large group of humans have ever existed that were not participants in some form of government?

And you didn't answer my question in the previous post.
 
You think government is what makes us behave? Ever heard of the old west? That's the closest thing we've had to anarchy in US history. I've got news for you...Hollywood gets it all wrong. The most dangerous cities, like Tombstone, had lower murder rates than Baltimore does today. Dodge City, I believe, for many years had no sheriff. The city knew no murder until after a sheriff was elected.

I am not sure that the "old west" example helps your argument. While there were certainly lawless communities in the old west that experienced little to no crime (Shasta County is a great example), there were also communities that had crime rates that surpass any other crime rates in the past 500-1,000 years:

The American West, even more than the American South, was a zone of anarchy until well into the 20th century. The cliche of Hollywood westerns that "the nearest sheriff is ninety miles away" was the reality in millions of square miles of territory, and the result was the other cliche of Hollywood westerns, ever-present violence...

In the American Wild West, annual homicide rates were fifty to several hundred times higher than those of eastern cities and midwestern farming regions: 50 per 100,000 in Abilene, 100 in Dodge City, 229 in Fort Griffin, and 1,500 in Wichita...and a whopping 24,000 in Benton, Wyoming.

The Better Angels of Our Nature
Steven Pinker

Government creates a violent black market for drugs that results in more murder that would exist in the absence of government. Then they point to all the violence they created and justify their own existence.

There is certainly something to be said of the correlation between increased legislation and the rise of violent crime. Individuals that are already labeled as "outlaws" are not going to turn to those who have labeled them as such and seek justice in their dealings. A drug dealer must either not seek justice or seek justice in a vigilante manner.

Human beings are generally good. I don't trust them when they are given power of force of others. That is what government is. Individuals may not exactly "play nice" all the time, but I'm willing to bet in the absence of government there is less violent death. Think about it. No WWI. No WWII. etc. How could there possibly be enough murder to surpass the death toll government creates.

Human beings inherently want what is in their own self-interest; self-interest, upon reflection and according to game theory, most often aligns with non-violence. Human beings are also prone to sympathy and empathy, however, the strength of these emotions often correlates with the strength of relation.

Over the course of history, violence (as a percentage of total population) has dropped while for the past 3,000 years, at least, governments, generally, have become less authoritative and totalitarian. Thus, government cannot explain the drop in violence. The three advances that I feel are the leading candidates for the drop in violence are (1) the evolution in farming and storage techniques/technology which has allowed many individuals to move beyond the state of bare subsistence, (2) trade and capitalism, and (3) the republic of letters (the invention of the printing press and spread of ideas).

(1) If one is barely meeting the necessary conditions for existence, then any theft of property is, potentially, a life or death occurrence. Thus, individuals in such a state had to guard their property with violent urgency. Moving beyond that state allows for the possibility of forgiveness and mercy.

(2) It would not be in your best interest to kill those you trade with; likewise, it would not be in your best interest to live in a society that is so dangerous that merchants and traders will not visit your society (Adam Smith has a great historical example regarding just this in Wealth of Nations). Thus, as trade increases, violence decreases (especially, inter-tribal violence, as opposed to intra-tribal violence).

(3) The republic of letters. With the invention of the printing press, books and ideas could be spread far, wide, and cheaply. Moreover, reading literature plays on the sympathy/empathy mechanism; as well, individuals are able to form relationships and sympathize with others that are from different areas and cultures. I think the internet will, ultimately, do much to decrease violence, as now the notion of a 'global community' has some real legs to it.

I'll address TRUT's comments later. Gotta run to a birthday party.

Enjoy.
 
Communism is terrible in theory, and my proposition has not been put to the test, so how do you know this?

Communism is perfect on paper.

Your plan is reputable on paper.

The problem is implementing and sustaining such a system.
 
Communism Marxism is perfect on paper.

Your plan is reputable on paper.

The problem is implementing and sustaining such a system.

Any proposed communist plan post Marx is too eager to jump the gun and either forcefully "educate" or remove certain individuals from society (or, both).
 
Any proposed communist plan post Marx is too eager to jump the gun and either forcefully "educate" or remove certain individuals from society (or, both).

Yes. With the hostility and outright disdain for philosophy by some on here, I decided to use "communism" instead of "Marxism".
 
You think government is what makes us behave? Ever heard of the old west? That's the closest thing we've had to anarchy in US history. I've got news for you...Hollywood gets it all wrong. The most dangerous cities, like Tombstone, had lower murder rates than Baltimore does today. Dodge City, I believe, for many years had no sheriff. The city knew no murder until after a sheriff was elected.

Government creates a violent black market for drugs that results in more murder that would exist in the absence of government. Then they point to all the violence they created and justify their own existence.

Human beings are generally good. I don't trust them when they are given power of force of others. That is what government is. Individuals may not exactly "play nice" all the time, but I'm willing to bet in the absence of government there is less violent death. Think about it. No WWI. No WWII. etc. How could there possibly be enough murder to surpass the death toll government creates.

I'll address TRUT's comments later. Gotta run to a birthday party.

1) Government does not inherently create violence. This is not to say that government can't provoke violence.

2) Humans are not inherently good. Humans are a life form, thus they are chiefly interested in survival. A lot of times this is translated as "self-interest".
 

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