House formally apologizes for slavery and Jim Crow

#51
#51
TennNC said:
Here's my approach - put yourself in someone else's shoes. Try to imagine what you might feel if you were in their position, if your ancestors and family not 15 years older than you (in my case at least) weren't given the same rights as others. I'm not saying that paying reparations is the answer, but I am saying that dismissing any attempts to help the plight of those who were brought here against their will and treated like subhumans for centuries is naive. As is thinking that African Americans' plight today isn't affected by slavery and Jim Crow-type laws.
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that's the biggest lie of the entire debate.
 
#52
#52
BigPapaVol said:
I'm talking about your indignant stand in acting as if reparations or apologies are in order while leaving out the folks who sold them into slavery. I'm just reminding you that those folks have a large hand in the final result, yet there isn't this massive outcry for an apology.

The entire apology fight is simply laying the groundwork for a financial purpose down the road.
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1) Where did I say reparations are in order?

2) Who would be so indignant that they wouldn't apologize for Jim Crow laws? I'm embarrassed that it used to be that way. Doesn't mean I take responsibility or blame. Just that I'm saying, "I understand that it sucks, and I wish it weren't that way." That's all. What's the big deal?

3) Where did I say we shouldn't comment on those who sold them into slavery? Who sold them into slavery? What do you propose we say about them? Chances are I'd support it.
 
#54
#54
TennNC said:
1) Where did I say reparations are in order?

2) Who would be so indignant that they wouldn't apologize for Jim Crow laws? I'm embarrassed that it used to be that way. Doesn't mean I take responsibility or blame. Just that I'm saying, "I understand that it sucks, and I wish it weren't that way." That's all. What's the big deal?

3) Where did I say we shouldn't comment on those who sold them into slavery? Who sold them into slavery? What do you propose we say about them? Chances are I'd support it.
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your response was to contradict someone saying the apologies are complete BS, which they are.
 
#55
#55
TennNC said:
please explain.
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you're implying that there has been no help or effort made to better the minority community. I understand that the money has essentially been pissed away fruitlessly, but saying that no effort has been made is just a lie.
 
#56
#56
BigPapaVol said:
you're implying that there has been no help or effort made to better the minority community. I understand that the money has essentially been pissed away fruitlessly, but saying that no effort has been made is just a lie.
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No. This is a lie. Tell me where I said that.

I can only assume that you're being overly defensive, interpreting my comment as an attack against you, which it wasn't. But don't make up stuff that I never said.
 
#59
#59
TennNC said:
No. This is a lie. Tell me where I said that.

I can only assume that you're being overly defensive, interpreting my comment as an attack against you, which it wasn't. But don't make up stuff that I never said.
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I didn't take it as an attack, I simply called your subtle effort at pretending that Americans have been bad guys by shouting down efforts at help is disengenuous, and it is.
 
#60
#60
BPV, do you espouse this?

"i'm so sick of this crap, it's over, it's been 140 yrs, get over it. no one was personally involved w/ it so lets move (o)n."
 
#61
#61
BigPapaVol said:
I didn't take it as an attack, I simply called your subtle effort at pretending that Americans have been bad guys by shouting down efforts at help is disengenuous, and it is.
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in fact, it was so subtle that it never existed. don't make up stuff i didn't say.
 
#62
#62
TennNC said:
BPV, do you espouse this?

"i'm so sick of this crap, it's over, it's been 140 yrs, get over it. no one was personally involved w/ it so lets move (o)n."
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not when couched that way, but I do agree with the central message.

Grousing over unmade apologies for sins of past generations is absolutely pathetic to me and hints of obstruction to moving forward. It's very Jesse Jackson-esque rather than MLK-esque.
 
#63
#63
TennNC said:
but I am saying that dismissing any attempts to help the plight of those who
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That's not subtlety. There have been no attempts dismissed. They have been made and failed miserably at every single expensive turn. I would say that dismissing further pointed attempts is the proper route to take.
 
#64
#64
BigPapaVol said:
where did you get that silliness?
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in your confusing and perplexing point about blaming "the sorry SOBs who sold their ancestors into slavery," you conveniently leave out that the slaves had to be captured against their will in the beginning. It's almost as if nobody was ever at fault and therefore, no harm was ever done.

It was wrong. It was always wrong. Those who built this country were complicit in that. And we recognize that today and do what we can to make amends.
 
#65
#65
BigPapaVol said:
not when couched that way, but I do agree with the central message.

Grousing over unmade apologies for sins of past generations is absolutely pathetic to me and hints of obstruction to moving forward. It's very Jesse Jackson-esque rather than MLK-esque.
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Why not couched that way? What's wrong with it? Because that indeed was the original post I replied to, which prompted your fanciful rant against some idea of me that percolates in your brain.
 
#66
#66
TennNC said:
in your confusing and perplexing point about blaming "the sorry SOBs who sold their ancestors into slavery," you conveniently leave out that the slaves had to be captured against their will in the beginning. It's almost as if nobody was ever at fault and therefore, no harm was ever done.

It was wrong. It was always wrong. Those who built this country were complicit in that. And we recognize that today and do what we can to make amends.
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I don't leave it out. Who on earth did the capturing and initially profited from the trade? Would the trade have even existed without them?

Why do we care to assess blame today? How is that a step in the right direction? Does it help us avoid capturing, selling and using slaves in the future by teaching us?

It was wrong then. It's wrong now, but nobody's doing it now. What's the point in a modern apology?
 
#67
#67
BigPapaVol said:
There have been no attempts dismissed.
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"i'm so sick of this crap, it's over, it's been 140 yrs, get over it. no one was personally involved w/ it so lets move (o)n."

Here's how I interpret this post - dismissing an attempt to acknowledge the harm that came from slavery and from unfair laws like Jim Crow. If you don't see this as a dismissal, then we're using a different system of processing information.

I don't personally care if you think any apologies for Jim Crow and the like are BS. I don't expect anything different. But I do think it is comical and naive.
 
#68
#68
TennNC said:
Why not couched that way? What's wrong with it? Because that indeed was the original post I replied to, which prompted your fanciful rant against some idea of me that percolates in your brain.
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I was simply asking why you would fail to vilify the founders of the trade in your hypothetical? See, the movement pushing for apologies and reparations have never brought up that little problem. I'm asking why not and why you aren't on a pedestal proclaiming that those folks owe some apologies and stuff, too.

As to joevol's comments, I just think they were poorly worded, but he got to the point.
 
#69
#69
BigPapaVol said:
I don't leave it out. Who on earth did the capturing and initially profited from the trade? Would the trade have even existed without them?

Why do we care to assess blame today? How is that a step in the right direction? Does it help us avoid capturing, selling and using slaves in the future by teaching us?

It was wrong then. It's wrong now, but nobody's doing it now. What's the point in a modern apology?
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What's the point in ever apologizing for anything? We should just do whatever the hell we want and then tell people to get over it once they're onto us. Right?
 
#70
#70
TennNC said:
"i'm so sick of this crap, it's over, it's been 140 yrs, get over it. no one was personally involved w/ it so lets move (o)n."

Here's how I interpret this post - dismissing an attempt to acknowledge the harm that came from slavery and from unfair laws like Jim Crow. If you don't see this as a dismissal, then we're using a different system of processing information.

I don't personally care if you think any apologies for Jim Crow and the like are BS. I don't expect anything different. But I do think it is comical and naive.
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Is it not more absurd and grossly more naive to think that some hollow apology today means anything whatsoever. I expect that you think it's some turning point and hints at some step forward, though it's exactly the opposite.

Dismissing the attempt to acknowledge that slavery was unfair is, to me, saying that it's a long time ago and wallowing in that problem still today is a huge problem. Dismissing says frickin' move on and make your way in the world rather than trying to find someone to blame for your problems. It's a mentality about acceptance of problems rather than solutions to them. It's not hard. Unfortunately, those who really want solutions and betterment have done it themselves, while the rest are awaiting government windfall.
 
#71
#71
TennNC said:
What's the point in ever apologizing for anything? We should just do whatever the hell we want and then tell people to get over it once they're onto us. Right?
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I'm a strong advocate of actually apologizing when I have done something wrong. Those are apologies made by those who perpetrated the wrong. I do that because I want someone to know that I was wrong or that it was unintentional.

How do you not see the difference in that and a useless apology by non-perpetrators of the wrongs?

This displaced apology of which you're apparently a supporter is nothing more than a hollow set of words since the enacters and enablers are no longer here.
 
#72
#72
BigPapaVol said:
I was simply asking why you would fail to vilify the founders of the trade in your hypothetical? See, the movement pushing for apologies and reparations have never brought up that little problem. I'm asking why not and why you aren't on a pedestal proclaiming that those folks owe some apologies and stuff, too.

As to joevol's comments, I just think they were poorly worded, but he got to the point.
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I think it was a different poster than joevol, but...

I didn't write the legislation, so I don't know if it in fact does place blame with the founders of the trade as well - perhaps it does. And perhaps it calls on other nations who practiced the trade to denounce it and pledge never to do it again (it still exists, you know). I can personally apologize for the actions of my ancestors, but I can't apologize for those I have no connection to (i.e. "those folks"). I can vilify them and have done so.

Since I didn't espouse reparations, there's no need to comment on your last point about "stuff."
 
#73
#73
TennNC said:
What's the point in ever apologizing for anything? We should just do whatever the hell we want and then tell people to get over it once they're onto us. Right?
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Sorry to interject but the critical point is defining "we". We in the present certainly didn't do it. I question whether I can apologize in the true sense of the word for something I did not do.
 
#74
#74
volinbham said:
Sorry to interject but the critical point is defining "we". We in the present certainly didn't do it. I question whether I can apologize in the true sense of the word for something I did not do.
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see post 71.
 
#75
#75
I think an apology such as the Japanese apologizing to the Chinese for major league atrocities serves the purpose to get Japan to formally acknowledge that these things happened and they regret the actions.

It's all been said and done many times over about slavery and the rape of the North American indians. It's just time to move on. From a practical point of view, I don't think many blacks would like a one way ticket back to Africa and I'm sure none of us are willing to pack up and move back to our offshore origins.

I done think any group deserves to have money thrown at them just because of inequities to their ancestors. If specific playing fields need to leveled to assure equal opportunity, then so be it.
 
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