How about this treatment of Palin?

#78
#78
JZVOL said:
Not that many people politically or in business start their career in the living room of a person who has bombed The Pentagon or U.S. Capitol Building.
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What do you want me (voters, people, whomever) to deduce from this?
 
#82
#82
BigPapaVol said:
Don't want to delve into the Palestinian issue, but wonder why those Palestinians are dying? They've been innocent in the whole affair, right?
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this is topic for another thread, but you're right - they weren't innocent.

they were not innocent of being enraged after being booted out of their homes and denied access to water and roads and basic necessities.

but they should just get over it, like other displaced groups throughout history have.
 
#83
#83
TennNC said:
this is topic for another thread, but you're right - they weren't innocent.

they were not innocent of being enraged after being booted out of their homes and denied access to water and roads and basic necessities.

but they should just get over it, like other displaced groups throughout history have.
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You don't happen to work for the U.N., do you? Those Jews are to blame for everything.
 
#84
#84
TennNC said:
this is topic for another thread, but you're right - they weren't innocent.

they were not innocent of being enraged after being booted out of their homes and denied access to water and roads and basic necessities.

but they should just get over it, like other displaced groups throughout history have.
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This is entirely Israel's fault?

Jordon has washed their hands of any crime?
 
#85
#85
TennNC said:
this is topic for another thread, but you're right - they weren't innocent.

they were not innocent of being enraged after being booted out of their homes and denied access to water and roads and basic necessities.

but they should just get over it, like other displaced groups throughout history have.
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yeah, and under Arafat's leadership the "Palestinians" were such innocent little angels that they were kicked out Jordan. Ever researched why they were kicked out of Jordan?
 
#86
#86
OrangeEmpire said:
This is entirely Israel's fault?

Jordon has washed their hands of any crime?
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The Palenstinian terrorist groups (because not all Palestinians are terrorists) are to blame because they subscribe to the metaphysics of martyrdom, and celebrate such violence.

The Israeli's are to blame because they believe God, in his infinite wisdom on real estate, decided to promise the a patch of desert on the Mediterranean, surrounded by people that hate them.

Unfounded beliefs about the supernatural are at the heart of this problem, and both sides manufacture them in earnest.
 
#87
#87
rjd970 said:
There is a difference between what Israel and Hamas do. Hamas deliberately targets civilians, while Israel (as a rule) does not. Israel hasn't deliberately killed innocent Palenstinians any more than we deliberately killed innocents Germans in WWII. Intentions are everything in this conflict. Your above statement doesn't make sense.
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So, even though I don't "intend" to kill more than 4x the number of innocent people, I'm absolved of any wrongdoing?

Here's an Israeli source on the stats:

B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities

And why do you think Hamas targets innocent people? Perhaps b/c Palestinians don't have a formal army and would absolutely get destroyed in any traditional battle against a US-funded Israeli military? It's evil - despicable, horrific. But it's the only thing that seems to garner attention to what they're experiencing. And how in the world is it any worse than bulldozing homes and dropping bombs that result in 4x as many innocent people dying?

My problem is with the Israeli government's approach, and PM Olmert agrees:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/sep/29/israelandthepalestinians.syria

"We have to reach an agreement with the Palestinians, the meaning of which is that in practice we will withdraw from almost all the territories, if not all the territories," Olmert said. "We will leave a percentage of these territories in our hands, but will have to give the Palestinians a similar percentage, because without that there will be no peace."
 
#88
#88
rjd970 said:
The Palenstinian terrorist groups (because not all Palestinians are terrorists) are to blame because they subscribe to the metaphysics of martyrdom, and celebrate such violence.

The Israeli's are to blame because they believe God, in his infinite wisdom on real estate, decided to promise the a patch of desert on the Mediterranean, surrounded by people that hate them.

Unfounded beliefs about the supernatural are at the heart of this problem, and both sides manufacture them in earnest.
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The root of the entire problem is England?
 
#90
#90
TennNC said:
What do you want me (voters, people, whomever) to deduce from this?
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Nothing, I understand you liberals are so progressive and sophisticated that it doesn't matter to you.

I mean you are the same people who question Palin's experience even though she has run a state and isn't the head of the ticket even though the head of your ticket has experience running a campaign.
 
#91
#91
rjd970 said:
The Palenstinian terrorist groups (because not all Palestinians are terrorists) are to blame because they subscribe to the metaphysics of martyrdom, and celebrate such violence.

The Israeli's are to blame because they believe God, in his infinite wisdom on real estate, decided to promise the a patch of desert on the Mediterranean, surrounded by people that hate them.

Unfounded beliefs about the supernatural are at the heart of this problem, and both sides manufacture them in earnest.
Click to expand...

I agree with that entirely.

the question is, how do you begin to end it ? who makes the first move?
 
#92
#92
TennNC said:
So, even though I don't "intend" to kill more than 4x the number of innocent people, I'm absolved of any wrongdoing?

Here's an Israeli source on the stats:

B'Tselem - Statistics - Fatalities

And why do you think Hamas targets innocent people? Perhaps b/c Palestinians don't have a formal army and would absolutely get destroyed in any traditional battle against a US-funded Israeli military? It's evil - despicable, horrific. But it's the only thing that seems to garner attention to what they're experiencing. And how in the world is it any worse than bulldozing homes and dropping bombs that result in 4x as many innocent people dying?

My problem is with the Israeli government's approach, and PM Olmert agrees:

Ehud Olmert: Israel must hand back land for peace with Palestinians and Syria | World news | guardian.co.uk

"We have to reach an agreement with the Palestinians, the meaning of which is that in practice we will withdraw from almost all the territories, if not all the territories," Olmert said. "We will leave a percentage of these territories in our hands, but will have to give the Palestinians a similar percentage, because without that there will be no peace."
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In short, we are evil b@$tards from The Mexican American War, The American Civil War, the Spanish American War, World War I and II, Korea, Vietnam, Panama, Gulf War and the war on terror?
 
#93
#93
JZVOL said:
Nothing, I understand you liberals are so progressive and sophisticated that it doesn't matter to you.

I mean you are the same people who question Palin's experience even though she has run a state and isn't the head of the ticket even though the head of your ticket has experience running a campaign.
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I'm not being snarky. and I'm not talking about Palin. I'm being serious. I'm asking you to do the same.

What do you want me, or anyone, to deduce from Obama's connection to Ayers?
 
#96
#96
TennNC said:
And why do you think Hamas targets innocent people? Perhaps b/c Palestinians don't have a formal army and would absolutely get destroyed in any traditional battle against a US-funded Israeli military? It's evil - despicable, horrific. But it's the only thing that seems to garner attention to what they're experiencing. And how in the world is it any worse than bulldozing homes and dropping bombs that result in 4x as many innocent people dying?
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I am not going to sit here and defend one side over another, but if you think Israel doesn't hold the moral high ground in this conflict, you're crazy.

Deliberately targeting civilians is worse than collateral damage, no matter how many more deaths one causes over another. That is the morality of the situation. Intentions are everything.

Think about it like this, what if there were a perfect weapon where you could take out anybody you wanted, anywhere on earth, anytime you wanted, with a guarantee there would be no collateral damage and the intended target would be the only casualty. Now ask yourself how each side would employ such a weapon in this conflict. It is safe to assume given what has transpired over this conflict that Israel would use such a weapon as to rule out any possibility of innocent civilians dying. Given how Hamas and Hezbollah has carried out this war, it is safe to assume they would use it to maximize civilian casualties and garner the most press.
 
#97
#97
rjd970 said:
I am not going to sit here and defend one side over another, but if you think Israel doesn't hold the moral high ground in this conflict, you're crazy.

Deliberately targeting civilians is worse than collateral damage, no matter how many more deaths one causes over another. That is the morality of the situation. Intentions are everything.

Think about it like this, what if there were a perfect weapon where you could take out anybody you wanted, anywhere on earth, anytime you wanted, with a guarantee there would be no collateral damage and the intended target would be the only casualty. Now ask yourself how each side would employ such a weapon in this conflict. It is safe to assume given what has transpired over this conflict that Israel would use such a weapon as to rule out any possibility of innocent civilians dying. Given how Hamas and Hezbollah has carried out this war, it is safe to assume they would use it to maximize civilian casualties and garner the most press.
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Wow, you are really starting to scare me.

:hi:
 
#98
#98
TennNC said:
I'm not being snarky. and I'm not talking about Palin. I'm being serious. I'm asking you to do the same.

What do you want me, or anyone, to deduce from Obama's connection to Ayers?
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I just don't see how it's not a major red flag that he has been in a man's living room who bombed The Pentagon, U.S. Capitol Building and police HQ.

It makes no difference how old Obama was when it happened. Ayers isn't sorry for it and as far as I'm concerned he should have been put to death, spent life in prison or never been allowed on American soil the rest of his life.

The fact he is educating children is absurd and that fact Obama would work with that man is absurd. I would be livid if anything Ayers supported was implemented on my kids.

Then you throw in the Rev Wright stuff.

That's just two people he's associated with that hate America.

To dismiss such things is extremely naive.
 
#99
#99
rjd970 said:
I am not going to sit here and defend one side over another, but if you think Israel doesn't hold the moral high ground in this conflict, you're crazy.
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It sure sounds like you are defending Israel in the same sentence, let alone the entire remainder of the post.

I understand your hypothetical, but it doesn't equate here b/c there's an inherent imbalance of power. Israel has it, the Palestinians don't. That's what separates the two. And when you don't have as much power, you use whatever means necessary to get your point across, no matter how vile.

They're both at fault. And since Israel is our ally, and since they have the power to change, that's the only way it's going to get done IMO.
 
#100
#100
JZVOL said:
I just don't see how it's not a major red flag that he has been in a man's living room who bombed The Pentagon, U.S. Capitol Building and police HQ.

It makes no difference how old Obama was when it happened. Ayers isn't sorry for it and as far as I'm concerned he should have been put to death, spent life in prison or never been allowed on American soil the rest of his life.

The fact he is educating children is absurd and that fact Obama would work with that man is absurd. I would be livid if anything Ayers supported was implemented on my kids.

Then you throw in the Rev Wright stuff.

That's just two people he's associated with that hate America.

To dismiss such things is extremely naive.
Click to expand...

Have you read the NYT piece on Ayers?

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/04/us/politics/04ayers.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

Conclusion: Obama and Ayers are not close.

You do realize that other conservatives also sat on the board with this unapologetic terrorist, including Walter Annenberg. You realize that, right?

If you truly believe that Ayers will somehow tarnish your children through an Obama administration's education policy, then you might need an aluminum hat. It sounds more like your anger is directed at the US Legal System for not dealing with Ayers differently when he did some bad stuff.
 
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