How long will it take to be a championship team?

#126
#126
99gator said:
Not getting involved in the argument, but Florida has been in 7 bcs bowls

FSU has been to 5
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Oops, you're half right and I was half wrong. FSU has been to 7 (99 Fiesta, 00 Sugar, 01 Orange, 03 Sugar, 04 Orange, 06 Orange, 13 Orange) and so has UF.
 
#127
#127
oregonvol said:
Oops, you're half right and I was half wrong. FSU has been to 7 (99 Fiesta, 00 Sugar, 01 Orange, 03 Sugar, 04 Orange, 06 Orange, 13 Orange) and so has UF.
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Im sorry but the fsu orange bowl games as ACC Champs were retarded bad. If I recall in one of those they had like five losses going into it.

The ACC is awful.
 
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#130
#130
lawgator1 said:
Im sorry but the fsu orange bowl games as ACC Champs were retarded bad. If I recall in one of those they had like five losses going into it.

The ACC is awful.
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So is the Big East, it's awful. So perhaps someone should call and notify Louisville that their complete ass whipping of UF didn't count. SMDH
 
#131
#131
RichRollin said:
How much did that win % dip due to the past 5 years.

A ton! UT was a respectable 44-20 from '03-'07 and a dismal 28-34 since 2008!

I'll agree the program has trended downwards the past ten years. But are you saying that we've been totally irrelevant for the past ten years?

Not entirely. I said UT has had some decent moments. But, if I had to say whether UT was leaning to the relevant or irrelevant side, IMO, it is slightly to the irrelevant side due to the domination of the conference as a whole. UT has become lost in the shuffle somewhat.

To the point that recruits don't know and respect who we are? Because that's the argument at hand between LG and I.

The last time UT was in contention for a conference title was in 2007. The recruits coming on campus in Aug. were 12-13 years old. For the '14 recruits they were 11-12.

UT was hugely popular during the '90's thanks to some big wins and likable players such as Shuler, Manning, Martin, Wilson, etc. Just like Georgetown basketball was hugely popular in the 80's...and Miami football. When the team loses, the luster goes away.

UT is always going to be popular, just like Michigan, Nebraska, etc. I don't know where you live, but ask a 12 year old kid how familiar they are with Nebraska, Wisconsin, Washington, Arizona St., UCLA....probably not very familiar unless they're from those areas.

As an adult, we can look back to the "glory days" and recall the games because we saw them (on tv or in person). These kids weren't even born when Manning arrived on campus.
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#132
#132
Boca Vol said:
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GOTCHA! Good post.

And sometimes I talk in circles I'll admit, so I'll ask you this. Is it more difficult to generate buzz around a historically good program after being down for a decade? Or a century? No way Tennessee, Nebraska, etc are 3rd-4th tier programs IMO. All it takes is a decent to good season to have the recruits flocking. Look at teams like West Virginia. They are coming off the best decade in program history yet it's all they can do to crack the top 25 in recruiting. Just so you don't think I'm looking thru orange glasses....even when Michigan was down, I viewed them as a premier program, just having down times. No way in hell USC can be viewed as a lower tier program than UF IMO. They're a bit down right now. Bad teams, not a lower tier program. Programs have down times. As sure as you and I will pay taxes programs will go up and down. It's our turn to endure it.

Another question....if UF has a down stretch in the future (and they will), we their arrogant self righteous fans view themselves as a 3rd-4th tier program? No I guarantee they won't! They will view themselves as a top program that's hitting a few bumps in the road. And as bad as I hate UF, I will respectfully see it that way. That's how I classify whats a top tier program. With the right coach, can they achieve the highest level of success, and maintain success for an extended period of time? Again, a team like WVU (who I like) or Oregon might have 8-10 year stretches where they are really good. But I have a hard time seeing them sustain it for a long period of time. That's just how I see it. It's all subjective, it's all opinions. But for LawGator to put UF several tiers above an FSU team that has won 2-3 vs them and as many BCS games, or several tiers above a Nebraska team that murdered them in a NC game, or USC who has won multiple NCs in this particular decade is lunacy, arrogant, pure unadulterated self ritcheous bullsh*t. And that too is just my opinion. But that's the basis for my entire rant.

PS: those who know LG know that he's completely full of dung
 
#133
#133
Neyland Law Vol said:
It does appear like TN is way down, but remember CDD was the head coach the last three years. I suspect those three teams were much better then their record. Alabama only won 3 games the year before Saban. Butch is putting together a top 5 class with a losing program. If he can coach a team to win games like he did at his last two stops TN will be back much quicker than you think. Once Butch gets one big win over a top 10 team, the recruits will come pouring in.

Remember TN is a top 10 program all time in wins, bowls, players drafted in the NFL, and almost all other all time records that matter. TN has the second most SEC titles all time. It will recover very quickly when it has the right coach.
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#134
#134
RichRollin said:
GOTCHA! Good post.

And sometimes I talk in circles I'll admit, so I'll ask you this. Is it more difficult to generate buzz around a historically good program after being down for a decade? Or a century? No way Tennessee, Nebraska, etc are 3rd-4th tier programs IMO. All it takes is a decent to good season to have the recruits flocking. Look at teams like West Virginia. They are coming off the best decade in program history yet it's all they can do to crack the top 25 in recruiting. Just so you don't think I'm looking thru orange glasses....even when Michigan was down, I viewed them as a premier program, just having down times. No way in hell USC can be viewed as a lower tier program than UF IMO. They're a bit down right now. Bad teams, not a lower tier program. Programs have down times. As sure as you and I will pay taxes programs will go up and down. It's our turn to endure it.

Another question....if UF has a down stretch in the future (and they will), we their arrogant self righteous fans view themselves as a 3rd-4th tier program? No I guarantee they won't! They will view themselves as a top program that's hitting a few bumps in the road. And as bad as I hate UF, I will respectfully see it that way. That's how I classify whats a top tier program. With the right coach, can they achieve the highest level of success, and maintain success for an extended period of time? Again, a team like WVU (who I like) or Oregon might have 8-10 year stretches where they are really good. But I have a hard time seeing them sustain it for a long period of time. That's just how I see it. It's all subjective, it's all opinions. But for LawGator to put UF several tiers above an FSU team that has won 2-3 vs them and as many BCS games, or several tiers above a Nebraska team that murdered them in a NC game, or USC who has won multiple NCs in this particular decade is lunacy, arrogant, pure unadulterated self ritcheous bullsh*t. And that too is just my opinion. But that's the basis for my entire rant.

PS: those who know LG know that he's completely full of dung
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I certainly think you have to look at what's currently happening with a program. You can't live in the past. Yes, history is important, but it isn't going to help you on gameday. Was Troy intimidated by UT or Neyland Stadium? No! They racked up over 700 yards of offense. Sunseri or not, that's just sad.

When looking at where teams are at this point (2013), UT, Mich, Nebraska, ND are all behind Oregon and UF. Using a bowl game from 17 years ago isn't a good argument regarding a program's stature in 2013. Nebraska, Michigan, & UT have all had down periods...as have Bama and ND. And ALL have had several coaches during this period. Coincidence? I don't think so. Look what happens when a team makes the right hire (Bama).
 
#135
#135
lawgator1 said:
The problem is that the kids now don't have that on their radar, it was too long ago. By that logic, a team like Lehigh is just a big win or two from being back on top. (An extreme example, but you get my drift, I'm sure).

My personal sense is that, for UT to get back in the hunt, you simply need much better players than you have. Not two or three of them. 30 of them. And to do that they have to be convinced that coming here is a good step towards getting to the NFL.

That should be the focus right now, imo.
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Don't know how to quote two posts in one, but this was LG's response to the post I quoted above.

So do you still think UT has been down too long for recruits to remember us LG?

Yahoo Sports: Rivals.com 2014 Team Recruiting Rankings

LMAO
 
#137
#137
Boca Vol said:
I certainly think you have to look at what's currently happening with a program. You can't live in the past. Yes, history is important, but it isn't going to help you on gameday. Was Troy intimidated by UT or Neyland Stadium? No! They racked up over 700 yards of offense. Sunseri or not, that's just sad.

When looking at where teams are at this point (2013), UT, Mich, Nebraska, ND are all behind Oregon and UF. Using a bowl game from 17 years ago isn't a good argument regarding a program's stature in 2013. Nebraska, Michigan, & UT have all had down periods...as have Bama and ND. And ALL have had several coaches during this period. Coincidence? I don't think so. Look what happens when a team makes the right hire (Bama).
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Do 4th tier (or lower) programs rank 1st nationally in recruiting following 5-7 seasons. 5 losing seasons out of the last 8? Again, it's subjective. But IMO UT is an upper tier program that's in a bit of a rut.
 
#138
#138
RichRollin said:
Do 4th tier (or lower) programs rank 1st nationally in recruiting following 5-7 seasons. 5 losing seasons out of the last 8? Again, it's subjective. But IMO UT is an upper tier program that's in a bit of a rut.
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Do you consider Ole Miss a top tier program? Don't get too caught up in recruiting numbers in May. What happens on the field is all that matters.

I'm not saying recruiting isn't important, but it's what you do with those recruits. Was Bama's talent significantly better in 2008 than 2007? I don't know, but I can guess it was similar.
 
#139
#139
Boca Vol said:
Do you consider Ole Miss a top tier program? Don't get too caught up in recruiting numbers in May. What happens on the field is all that matters.

I'm not saying recruiting isn't important, but it's what you do with those recruits. Was Bama's talent significantly better in 2008 than 2007? I don't know, but I can guess it was similar.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bama have similar talent in 07 to what we do now? Then they landed the #1 class and came out in 08 bad ass. So no they didn't have similar talent in 07-08. In 08 the freshman who came in were the springboard for the dynasty we are currently enduring.

Sorry for getting fired up. But IMO our talent is comparable to that 07 Bama team. Pretty good front line talent, holes when it comes to depth. Ironically that #1 class they signed was a really deep class. 33 players IIRC. If things go right, this class should have 31 and rank high.

And I understand that these things must materialize, I truly do. But I've seen this trend before with other teams and it turned out pretty good. I'm confident something is brewing on the hill and it smells damn good. And with all the momentum we have, I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit back and listen to the BS from the trolls and not bite back.
 
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#140
#140
RichRollin said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Bama have similar talent in 07 to what we do now? Then they landed the #1 class and came out in 08 bad ass. So no they didn't have similar talent in 07-08. In 08 the freshman who came in were the springboard for the dynasty we are currently enduring.

Sorry for getting fired up. But IMO are talent is comparable to that 07 Bama team. Pretty good front line talent, holes when it comes to depth. Ironically that #1 class they signed was a really deep class. 33 players IIRC. If things go right, this class should have 31 and rank high.

And I understand that these things must materialize, I truly do. But I've seen this trend before with other teams and it turned out pretty good. I confident something is brewing on the hill and it smells damn good. And with all the momentum we have, I'll be damned if I'm gonna sit back and listen to the BS from the trolls and not bite back.
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Go after them,I'm getting tired of the trolls saying Tennessee will never again be a power in the SEC! Why do the troll fans of other SEC teams give a damn about what goes on in the Vol Nation anyway?
 
#141
#141
Boca Vol said:
Do you consider Ole Miss a top tier program? Don't get too caught up in recruiting numbers in May. What happens on the field is all that matters.

I'm not saying recruiting isn't important, but it's what you do with those recruits. Was Bama's talent significantly better in 2008 than 2007? I don't know, but I can guess it was similar.
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Mark Barron, Marcel Darius, Lard ass Cody, Mark Ingram, Donte Hightower, Barrett Jones, Julio Jones, Robert Lester, and Courtney Upshaw were on that 08' team, and many made serious contributions as freshman. They were not on the 07' team.
 
#142
#142
RichRollin said:
Mark Barron, Marcel Darius, Lard ass Cody, Mark Ingram, Donte Hightower, Barrett Jones, Julio Jones, Robert Lester, and Courtney Upshaw were on that 08' team, and many made serious contributions as freshman. They were not on the 07' team.
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Thanks for pointing that out, I honestly didn't know which Freshmen on the '08 Bama team were serious contributors. From those names you mentioned it's pretty safe to say those players saw some action.

Sometimes you get your upper-classmen to kick it in gear and get some some contribution from the newcomers and you have a good team. I hope that's what happens with Butch & Co.

Once you get the ball rolling, you keep it rolling by feeding it with talent and need.
 
#143
#143
lawgator1 said:
Im sorry but the fsu orange bowl games as ACC Champs were retarded bad. If I recall in one of those they had like five losses going into it.

The ACC is awful.
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Yeah, yeah, keep on with your ACC argument, because it's all you got. The fact of the matter is FSU has won 2 of the last 3 head to head meetings with UF, so if they're 4th tier, then you are too.
 
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#145
#145
So I wanted to look at this from a different angle. I wanted to see if there was any pattern to recruiting and national championships. It appears that only 1 team, Texas in 2005, beat a team with a higher recruiting average.

So, I looked at the BCS championship teams recruiting average since 2005:

2005: Texas (13.5)
2006: Florida (7.25)
2007: LSU (8.75)
2008: Florida (5.25)
2009: Alabama (5.75)
2010: Auburn (12.25)
2011: Bama (2)
2012: Bama (2)
TEAM AVERAGE RECRUITING: 7.09

Using these teams as a measuring stick would suggest that to win the national championship the team needs to have 1) a four year recruiting average of around 7.09, but no lower than 13.5. and 2) a higher four year recruiting average than their opponent and 3) a minimum of at least one 1st or 2nd ranked class within four years of a championship.

Of the 8 teams, 3 won a championship within four years of a 1st ranked recruiting class; 2 others won a championship within four years of a 2 ranked recruiting class, 1 team won it within 3 years of a 2nd ranked recruiting class and one team won it within 2 years of a 1st ranked recruiting class.

All of the teams, except Auburn, had at least one 1st or 2nd ranked class.

The two anomalies in this study are Texas and Auburn. Texas is the only team to beat a team with a higher ranked four year average (I think) and is the lowest ranked in this bunch, and Auburn was the only team to not have a top 2 class in their four year average.

I wonder if that correlation is directly related to the ability of a star mobile quarterback to be a game changer? The answer, if you are wondering, is yes.

If you remove the anomalous Auburn and Texas from the averages, you find that the average four year trailing recruiting class required for a championship jumps up to 5.2.
 
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#147
#147
i think he has a 6 year limit to get one national title back here period. fulmer did it in 6 no reason butch can't.
 
#149
#149
Neyland Law Vol said:
It does appear like TN is way down, but remember CDD was the head coach the last three years. I suspect those three teams were much better then their record. Alabama only won 3 games the year before Saban. Butch is putting together a top 5 class with a losing program. If he can coach a team to win games like he did at his last two stops TN will be back much quicker than you think. Once Butch gets one big win over a top 10 team, the recruits will come pouring in.

Remember TN is a top 10 program all time in wins, bowls, players drafted in the NFL, and almost all other all time records that matter. TN has the second most SEC titles all time. It will recover very quickly when it has the right coach.
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Dueling Attorneys.... I like it. You make much more sense so I'm for you Neyland.
 
#150
#150
govols105 said:
i think he has a 6 year limit to get one national title back here period. fulmer did it in 6 no reason butch can't.
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Are you serious? The SEC during the first half of Fulmer's tenure is nothing like it is today. To think that Jones should have to win a title simply because Fulmer did is ludicrous.

UT went 47 years between NCs. It's not like they are automatic.
 
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