How to Regulate NIL

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You don't give the NCAA an option. They don't have cards to play. They cannot make demands when the P 4/5 conferences are also by far the most lucrative in basketball too.

And there are ways to structure that leave the conferences in tact.

Missouri HS sports are weird. They have conferences and conference champions but they reclassify schools every year. The last few games of the football season are essentially play in games for a 4 round playoff. They have to be played against "district" teams that are defined by the annual reclass. Something similar might work for the "big" football schools. Let's say there's 40 of them. They would still play conference games to compete for the conference championship. But they would have 4 or 5 games against the "big 40" to play their way into an 8 game playoff following the conference championship games. Only those 4 or 5 games would count toward the play-in record even if you played more games against those big 40.

Ostensibly, Vandy could win the SEC but would not be part of the Big 40... and could not play for the top level NC.

The simplest way would be to scrap the traditional conferences for football. But there are other ways that it can be made to work.

Though I'm not very familiar, I think European Premier Futbol does something like that where teams can "bubble up" or "sink" in the tier system depending on their performance.

I can see this. The incentive to rise up is in the "cut" of each level. Better performance = more money.

The issue, of course, remains the "parity controls" or moving up becomes extremely difficult.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

I'm fine. You're dishonest and blocked, immediately after you reply. Have a wonderful night.

You're the dishonest one. You're just running away because you can't prove your claims or even show reliable evidence for them.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Hehehehe. You miss the part where it specifically says "our Tennessee athletes." Hmmm. I wonder who selects the athletes at UT?

"Our" as in "we are all Tennessee grads".
gain, that's not the coaches. It's alumni. You are epically confused. Get a freaking dictionary.

 

[volfan102455]

Absolutely. I've no idea what I'm saying.

About Us - The Volunteer Club

Learn about the Volunteer Club and our NIL efforts.

thevolunteerclub.com

This is the gray area that needs to be defined. This statement here is the sticking point:

The Volunteer Club is facilitated by Spyre Sports, a sports & media agency based in Knoxville, Tennessee. Founded by University of Tennessee, Knoxville alumni, Spyre Sports champions Tennessee athletes and connects them with local and national businesses.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

This is the gray area that needs to be defined. This statement here is the sticking point:

The Volunteer Club is facilitated by Spyre Sports, a sports & media agency based in Knoxville, Tennessee. Founded by University of Tennessee, Knoxville alumni, Spyre Sports champions Tennessee athletes and connects them with local and national businesses.

To repeat. They are alumni. They aren't tge coaches. There is no sticking point. The Volunteer Club doesn't say anything about connecting players to the University.

The coaches can offer scholarships to whomever they want that meets the university's enrollment criteria. The University has the right to make the offer public. That makes it easy - and not a rules violation for a NIL collective to then contact the athletes to make NIL endorsement offers. That can happen with zero contact between the NIL collective and the University.

And...the entire NCAA stance on NIL, recruiting, and benefits is likely to be permanently restrained by the court as of 2/13/24 anyway.

 

[aRmo]

So take everything you propose and now apply it to YOUR job.

Does it still make sense?

Should "we" regulate the maximum amount of $ you can make?

Should we tell you that you can't switch jobs to another company?

Should we regulate when you can talk to potential employers?

Kind of takes a new perspective when you acknowledge you're trying to impose your will on someone else's livelihood.

again, this is just theoretical. I was just trying to start conversation my friend.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

The NCAA won't win a lawsuit by a player who is specifically punished via playing time for making money.

Besides, it's obvious both the money is there and the players are worth it to the school. You'll just push the money back to the illegal payments.

Schools aren't going to let talent sit nor are they going to let them go elsewhere because their NIL is too high.

The players are worth the money to the school via NIL. Why are you trying to penalize players for being talented and valuable?

If the worth is his face on a billboard or in an ad, there is no problem, if it is on the field, it becomes pay for play and that is NOT covered by the court decision. The NFL uses the draft, multi year initial contracts, and trade restrictions to fight off the impact of OUTSIDE money impacting the SALARY CAP. The NCAA will not be forbidden to find a mechanism to reach some level of competitive balance to insure NIL does not break the logic associated with the scholly, room and board, medical coverage, stipends, and other in the amateur of sorts model. You can bet there a bunch of lawyers drilling down on the issue as we type. NIL caps, or maybe the option to give up 3 roster slots for every NIL bearing player signed, or other methods. Portal freedoms make complying with this practical.

I still believe in the end there will be at least a two tier NIL system, players earning less than "X", don't impact the cap, so the wing and mattress deals don't complicate the world, but the big dollar guys counts against THE cap. Maybe going to variable multi year schollies similar to the pro initial contracts which of course would NOT have to match the structure of NIL deals made outside of the AD. This could also supress some of the entire portal flight issue. Lots of options to run to ground before pulling a trigger. It is possible to make rules only applicable to specific divisions.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

If the worth is his face on a billboard or in an ad, there is no problem, if it is on the field, it becomes pay for play and that is NOT covered by the court decision. The NFL uses the draft, multi year initial contracts, and trade restrictions to fight off the impact of OUTSIDE money impacting the SALARY CAP. The NCAA will not be forbidden to find a mechanism to reach some level of competitive balance to insure NIL does not break the logic associated with the scholly, room and board, medical coverage, stipends, and other in the amateur of sorts model. You can bet there a bunch of lawyers drilling down on the issue as we type. NIL caps, or maybe the option to give up 3 roster slots for every NIL bearing player signed, or other methods. Portal freedoms make complying with this practical.

I still believe in the end there will be at least a two tier NIL system, players earning less than "X", don't impact the cap, so the wing and mattress deals don't complicate the world, but the big dollar guys counts against THE cap. Maybe going to variable multi year schollies similar to the pro initial contracts which of course would NOT have to match the structure of NIL deals made outside of the AD. This could also supress some of the entire portal flight issue. Lots of options to run to ground before pulling a trigger. It is possible to make rules only applicable to specific divisions.

Once again, the pro leagues HAVE an Antitrust Exemption, the NCAA doesn't. This makes a huge difference in regulating ANY market.

Trying to "make sure no one overdoes it" was your downfall.

You're anticompetitive at the core. You don't want teams to get "too good" or "too bad."

The NCAA is currently getting sued in every direction for manipulating the market.

NO ONE OWES THE NCAA THE CHANCE TO MAINTAIN THEIR BUSINESS BY ILLEGAL MEANS. They won't be allowed to keep their business competitive by breaking Antitrust Law UNLESS they get an Exemption and essentially become another pro league.

The NCAA is getting its tail whipped in court consistently because not compensating the labor that runs your business is illegal. Shifting that illegal practice to say, "we're not limiting the students, we're limiting the teams" is not going to be legal either.

Imagine if this were a race issue. Instead of telling black kids they couldn't sign with a team, you tell the team they can only have XXX black players. That makes it okay, right? Uh.... No.

Instead of limiting the player's NIL, we tell the team they can only have XXX NIL. In your mind, that makes it okay. It doesn't.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Once again, the pro leagues HAVE an Antitrust Exemption, the NCAA doesn't. This makes a huge difference in regulating ANY market.

Trying to "make sure no one overdoes it" was your downfall.

You're anticompetitive at the core. You don't want teams to get "too good" or "too bad."

The NCAA is currently getting sued in every direction for manipulating the market.

NO ONE OWES THE NCAA THE CHANCE TO MAINTAIN THEIR BUSINESS BY ILLEGAL MEANS. They won't be allowed to keep their business competitive by breaking Antitrust Law UNLESS they get an Exemption and essentially become another pro league.

The NCAA is getting its tail whipped in court consistently because not compensating the labor that runs your business is illegal. Shifting that illegal practice to say, "we're not limiting the students, we're limiting the teams" is not going to be legal either.

Imagine if this were a race issue. Instead of telling black kids they couldn't sign with a team, you tell the team they can only have XXX black players. That makes it okay, right? Uh.... No.

Instead of limiting the player's NIL, we tell the team they can know have XXX NIL. In your mind, that makes it okay. It doesn't.

The NCAA losing in the courts is actually two separate issues. You're right about them both.

Given the Supreme Court rulings and the emerging state laws about NIL, I don't think the NCAA is going to get an anti-trust exemption or any significant legal wins.

Their model is unconstitutional. Their transfer rules? It's just a matter of time until some smart lawyer goes after it on 13th Amendment grounds.

 

[woodpusher]

This is the gray area that needs to be defined. This statement here is the sticking point:

The Volunteer Club is facilitated by Spyre Sports, a sports & media agency based in Knoxville, Tennessee. Founded by University of Tennessee, Knoxville alumni, Spyre Sports champions Tennessee athletes and connects them with local and national businesses.

Have they really been in business for 30 years?

I assume Bryce Young, Sunisa Lee, et al. were not clients of theirs -- they should have been more clear about that though.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Once again, the pro leagues HAVE an Antitrust Exemption, the NCAA doesn't. This makes a huge difference in regulating ANY market.

Trying to "make sure no one overdoes it" was your downfall.

You're anticompetitive at the core. You don't want teams to get "too good" or "too bad."

The NCAA is currently getting sued in every direction for manipulating the market.

NO ONE OWES THE NCAA THE CHANCE TO MAINTAIN THEIR BUSINESS BY ILLEGAL MEANS. They won't be allowed to keep their business competitive by breaking Antitrust Law UNLESS they get an Exemption and essentially become another pro league.

The NCAA is getting its tail whipped in court consistently because not compensating the labor that runs your business is illegal. Shifting that illegal practice to say, "we're not limiting the students, we're limiting the teams" is not going to be legal either.

Imagine if this were a race issue. Instead of telling black kids they couldn't sign with a team, you tell the team they can only have XXX black players. That makes it okay, right? Uh.... No.

Instead of limiting the player's NIL, we tell the team they can only have XXX NIL. In your mind, that makes it okay. It doesn't.

ONCE AGAIN, no one is proposing limiting any player from working their best NIL deal and getting to play at AN NCAA institution. If they are NIL worthy many schools will provide a landing spot. NIL earnings is a data point just like a scholly slot is a datapoint. Schools CAN be limited on both. Existence of NIL does not provide a player a pass on having to get one of the 85 schollies either.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

ONCE AGAIN, no one is proposing limiting any player from working their best NIL deal and getting to play at AN NCAA institution. If they are NIL worthy many schools will provide a landing spot. NIL earnings is a data point just like a scholly slot is a datapoint. Schools CAN be limited on both. Existence of NIL does not provide a player a pass on having to get one of the 85 schollies either.

Not so. NO ONE or NO institution can set any limits or cap on NIL earnings. Your "data point" argument is meaningless, because NIL is a contract between the athletes and the NIL collectives. The schools nor the NCAA can regulate or cap a financial agreement between two other parties.

You can argue all you want but your argument isn't going anywhere because you're advocating an illegal restraint of trade. That violates the federal Sherman Antitrust Act.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

Even if you could put a salary cap on the collective, it would be impossible to enforce, or very difficult at any rate.

In spite of the court ruling, I think there likely is a way to change transfer rules. I get that there is an aspect of limiting the athletes rights, but IMO it should be balanced by the academic implications of transferring 3-4 times.

I know the counter argument that academics are already a joke with all the money floating around. The retort to that, is are the Universities academic institutions or minor league sports teams? Are they allowed to regulate their own academics or not? Does Congress or the courts force Universities to act against their academic mission?

If the Universities wanted to, they could make a stand on that issue. I suspect they do not want to. The academics of a relatively handful of athletes, some or many of which are getting paid well, vs. the millions the Universities make, is no contest I suspect.

Non athlete students can transfer as many times as they wish. Why should the rules athletes be any different?

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

ONCE AGAIN, no one is proposing limiting any player from working their best NIL deal and getting to play at AN NCAA institution. If they are NIL worthy many schools will provide a landing spot. NIL earnings is a data point just like a scholly slot is a datapoint. Schools CAN be limited on both. Existence of NIL does not provide a player a pass on having to get one of the 85 schollies either.

But WHY are you limiting NIL in the first place?

Your stated reason is to control competition.

That's not legal. You can control the scholarships, the rules of the game, etc but you CANNOT control the activities of players off the field without specific reasons WHY that activity hurts the league.

"Because it makes things less competitive if the players are getting money. Some schools have more money."

Some schools put more money in facilities, pay coaches more, have better strength and conditioning, and on and on. Are you going to regulate that too?

Is Neyland just TOO BIG and TOO LOUD and TOO intimidating? Has TN "overdone it" with such a large stadium?

You're out in no man's land.

 

[ClearwaterVol]

If the worth is his face on a billboard or in an ad, there is no problem, if it is on the field, it becomes pay for play and that is NOT covered by the court decision. The NFL uses the draft, multi year initial contracts, and trade restrictions to fight off the impact of OUTSIDE money impacting the SALARY CAP. The NCAA will not be forbidden to find a mechanism to reach some level of competitive balance to insure NIL does not break the logic associated with the scholly, room and board, medical coverage, stipends, and other in the amateur of sorts model. You can bet there a bunch of lawyers drilling down on the issue as we type. NIL caps, or maybe the option to give up 3 roster slots for every NIL bearing player signed, or other methods. Portal freedoms make complying with this practical.

I still believe in the end there will be at least a two tier NIL system, players earning less than "X", don't impact the cap, so the wing and mattress deals don't complicate the world, but the big dollar guys counts against THE cap. Maybe going to variable multi year schollies similar to the pro initial contracts which of course would NOT have to match the structure of NIL deals made outside of the AD. This could also supress some of the entire portal flight issue. Lots of options to run to ground before pulling a trigger. It is possible to make rules only applicable to specific divisions.

Your post assumes that NIL money received is any business of the university or NCAA. I don't think that will pass muster.

 

[Remy]

Though I'm not very familiar, I think European Premier Futbol does something like that where teams can "bubble up" or "sink" in the tier system depending on their performance.

I can see this. The incentive to rise up is in the "cut" of each level. Better performance = more money.

The issue, of course, remains the "parity controls" or moving up becomes extremely difficult.

California does the bubble up thingy as well for high school sports. They dldn't reclassify annually (or at least they didn't last time I lived there) but one of my best buds coached football at El Segundo High (which had national powerhouse Mira Costa down the street) and we would go over it all the time and he never was able to explain it well enough for me to understand it very well.

 

[Delmar]

Thought I’d post this article here too. Wasn’t sure who might not read the flag thread. Pretty interesting. Sounds like the NCAA lawyers already fumbled the ball.

State Of Tennessee And NCAA Battle In Courtroom, With A Big Orange Flag Welcoming All Parties

NCAA Fumbles Response To NIL Timing In Lawsuit Hearing In Tennessee Courtroom, as battle intensifies in courtroom

www.outkick.com

 

[Stonewall83]

At some point the courts will have to better define NIL verses salary from a company. NIL is the ability for a person to profit off their name, image and likeliness. That is not a salary. A "salary" is what your employer pays you to do something that benefits them.

If players become "employees" their "salary" would be set based on their performance on the field. Coaches pay is considered a "salary" because they are paid to do a specific job and do it well. Same is true for NFL. If you don't perform you get paid less or FIRED.

The NCAA should as the governing body that speaks to recruiting and transfer rules be able to set rules that dictate what is allowed and what isn't.

If NIL was working as expected, there would be no need for an athlete to ever transfer from one school to another. They may want to connect to a different collective that can provide them with a better NIL but they should not have to "change schools" for that to happen. The fact that they do is a clear indication that NIL is related to the school and is being used for recruiting.

Business owners don’t have favorite teams?? Most of these guys aren’t getting national endorsements. They are getting Ma and Pa Kettles local car dealer or other local business. Of course the collectives are going to be tied to a school.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Thought I’d post this article here too. Wasn’t sure who might not read the flag thread. Pretty interesting. Sounds like the NCAA lawyers already fumbled the ball.

State Of Tennessee And NCAA Battle In Courtroom, With A Big Orange Flag Welcoming All Parties

NCAA Fumbles Response To NIL Timing In Lawsuit Hearing In Tennessee Courtroom, as battle intensifies in courtroom

www.outkick.com

From the start I'm not sure WHY the NCAA thinks it can tell players when they can and can't talk about or negotiate an NIL deal.

I'm unsure when the NCAA got the right to intrude in a player's private contracts.

It appears their attorney doesn't understand either.

 

[Delmar]

From the start I'm not sure WHY the NCAA thinks it can tell players when they can and can't talk about or negotiate an NIL deal.

I'm unsure when the NCAA got the right to intrude in a player's private contracts.

It appears their attorney doesn't understand either.

Yeah. For some reason I don’t think this decision is going to take long.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Yeah. For some reason I don’t think this decision is going to take long.

I don't know the intricacies of the NIL rules but I can't see it.

For instance, that gymnast with a bunch of followers on Instagram or whatever might get NIL deals that have zero to do with her athletics and school and a lot to do with her popularity online. The NCAA shouldn't be anywhere near those kinds of deals.

I'm with you. I don't see how the NCAA can win and retain any rights to "police" NIL discussions.

 

[tnvols106]

I do not think Congress should have anything to do with it- they can't get along with each other as it is. Anytime the government gets involved in anything they screw it up.

I agree 100%, all I’m saying is I think that’s the only way to regulate NIL as far as caps.

 

[S.C. OrangeMan]

I agree 100%, all I’m saying is I think that’s the only way to regulate NIL as far as caps.

There is no "regulate" NIL or cap it.
Those are Sherman Antitrust Act violations.
Ergo, any NCAA interference or cap is an illegal restraint of trade.

 

[Volfan2012]

Taking this Judge a while to rule on what seems to be a clear cut ruling. When I see something like this makes me think he is trying to find some way to rule for the NCAA. It is clearly anti- trust so shouldn't take this long to just rule and everyone move on to the new and different way NIL will be managed by schools.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Taking this Judge a while to rule on what seems to be a clear cut ruling. When I see something like this makes me think he is trying to find some way to rule for the NCAA. It is clearly anti- trust so shouldn't take this long to just rule and everyone move on to the new and different way NIL will be managed by schools.

He's a Federal District Judge. He's got more than just one case sitting before him.