I just saw a tight shot of Tebow...

#276
#276
Vercingetorix said:
All right, since you're a Gator, I'll bite.

You posit a God who's willing to pick sides in a football game in order to glorify his own self, but who then just deigns to stand aside and watch while genocide happens in Darfur, while children are raped by their relatives; while good Christian people die screaming of cancer, while a tsunami rises up out of the waves and wipes out a quarter of a million people in a dozen countries. Let me just stand up right now and say that, if that's the God who exists, then he is not worthy of the worship of moral beings. (Let me also bold it, so if that's an accurate depiction of the God that exists, he will be sure to notice it and strike me down right here.) Maybe they worship him out of fear, because they're afraid he might cast them into the fires of hell forever and ever, but they sure shouldn't worship him because he deserves it.

Seriously -- an "all-powerful," "all-loving" God is willing to make a football bounce one way or the other in order to aggrandize himself, but he's not willing to intervene while horrific things happen to good people? You cannot seriously believe this.
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I've been reading your posts since the thread started. I respect your point of view. However, I seriously believe my point of view and I will stand by it. Things happen for a reason, that's another story. I will worship God no matter what happens, if you choose not to then that is your own matter. Again, discussions like this are touchy, b/c the human mind can rationalize whatever it wants. I'm just telling you my point of view. God intervenes in all horrific things that happen, maybe your just not there to see it. BUT I respect your point of view. I don't have all the answers for you, its a leap of faith. Have I ever seen God or Jesus, NO. Do I believe they exist - absolutely because I can see the beauty, the works, the way people live their lives in return for what HE has done for them. Everyone in the country was watching that football game. All Tim does is wear eye black with a Bible verse on them. His way of giving back to his creator is going on mission trips and preaching the word to prisons and to orphans. I will never say that your wrong. I would never confront you and tell you your wrong. That's why God is mysterious in a sense because there has to be faith involved. He cares about everything - good and bad. However, this is just my beliefs - take from it what you want. I am getting married saturday - wish me luck.
 
#277
#277
Some kids tattoo their bodies with vulgar messages. Instead, Tebow writes a positive message on his eyeblack, and some of you get your panties in a wad. If he'd quoted something from the Satanic Bible or L. Ron Hubbard, or the Koran, would you have been as upset? Get over it! He's standing up for something he believes in- which is more than many of us will ever do.
 
#279
#279
VictoryVille101 said:
So you don't think God has blessed Tim Tebow and put him in this position to be one of the greatest college athletes of this generation?
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no, i don't care. when you're on the field, play football. when you're off the field, do as you please. don't combine the two.

666 said:
I watch football to watch football, not lifetime network.
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exactly.
 
#280
#280
doozer said:
when you're on the field, play football. when you're off the field, do as you please. don't combine the two.exactly.
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To put football football on a pedestal and say religion shouldn't be involved is ridiculous. You do realize its a game they are playing right? If no one watched, it wouldn't exist. God uses every person in every situation to glorify himself, it doesn't matter whether you're a CEO, a janitor, a college athlete, or a housewife. God uses people where they are for his glory, and if football has brought attention to Tebow and he deflects that attention to God then thats pretty awesome. Don't tell people how to live their lives and how to worship God...you are choosing to watch him right? So don't complain if he talks more about God than football, he doesn't answer to you. (Im not trying to attack you here, for the record, just trying to convey a point)

Acts 4
18Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. 19But Peter and John replied, "Judge for yourselves whether it is right in God's sight to obey you rather than God. 20For we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard."
 
#281
#281
Sounds like some people just need to worry about themselves. If you are basing your views and thoughts about Christianity off what others do and say, then you obviously didn't get what Christianity is about. I look to God and only God, I dont look at what other Christians are doing. Man can and will fail you, God will not. Most of the arguments I have read in here sound like bitter school children arguing over who got the most milk. Read the Bible, worship God (not church, a religion, a preacher, etc) all others are run by man. Man is sinful and man will let you down. At the end of your life when you stand before God you will answer for no man but yourself. I hate Florida will all my might, but Tebow is admirable. If anyone gets offended by one guy writing a bible verse on his cheek, you have some problems. Its his belief and he isn't bothering anyone.
 
#282
#282
Vercingetorix said:
Seriously -- an "all-powerful," "all-loving" God is willing to make a football bounce one way or the other in order to aggrandize himself, but he's not willing to intervene while horrific things happen to good people? You cannot seriously believe this.
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Not being mean but you are ignorant on the God of the Bible. Read the book of Job and for that matter the gospels to get an idea of part of the character of God. God is not asking anyone to do anything he hasn't already done. I'm not sure anyone on here has said God cares about how a football bounces, I think you are extrapolating that from the fact that God cares about the players on the field. Again people die, that is the one thing guaranteed to us. God allows evil to exist, allows evil people (everyone) to commit evil acts, and allows earth to also show the consequences that sin had on creation. When man fell the consequences were felt on more than just man, read Genesis for a better explanation and also this in Romans.
Romans 8:18-21
18I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

No one can explain why natural disasters occur, but we cannot create a God that doesn't exist. God's character is revealed through the bible. God is love, He does love us, He does give us what is undue to us, but in the good way. We are deserving of eternal punishment for sinning against a good and perfect God, but His grace saves us. We can't ignore God and all His blessings in the good times, and then curse Him in the bad times.
 
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#283
#283
doozer said:
no, i don't care. when you're on the field, play football. when you're off the field, do as you please. don't combine the two.



exactly.
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he does play fball, sorry that he praises God offends you. does it also offend you to see a rapper who just won an award for a song talking bout killing, and sex, etc to get up and praise God? this is sad that ppl are crying over some eye paint or him pointing to the sky.
 
#284
#284
Vol Mania 21 said:
he does play fball, sorry that he praises God offends you. does it also offend you to see a rapper who just won an award for a song talking bout killing, and sex, etc to get up and praise God? this is sad that ppl are crying over some eye paint or him pointing to the sky.
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My point exactly. Thanks
 
#285
#285
Vol Mania 21 said:
he does play fball, sorry that he praises God offends you. does it also offend you to see a rapper who just won an award for a song talking bout killing, and sex, etc to get up and praise God? this is sad that ppl are crying over some eye paint or him pointing to the sky.
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almost all rap is garbage. i don't listen to very much of nor do i care who wins what awards.
 
#286
#286
religion is a very personal thing. nobody has the same beliefs or thoughts on the subject. this much is obvious.

for the record, i have a solid faith. i just don't feel the need to advertise my beliefs when i know for a fact that the larger majority of the people in America, the world, etc. don't feel the same as i do.

therein lies the Tebow problem.
 
#287
#287
BigPapaVol said:
I've made a choice and it's immaterial to the conversation. I would think that evangelizers want to be as effective as possible. The "if just one single kid comes to Jesus" argument undermines the idea that we want to be as effective as possible in spreading the word.
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I made the same argument about the DARE program many moons ago.....
 
#288
#288
VictoryVille101 said:
I've been reading your posts since the thread started. I respect your point of view. However, I seriously believe my point of view and I will stand by it. Things happen for a reason, that's another story. I will worship God no matter what happens, if you choose not to then that is your own matter. Again, discussions like this are touchy, b/c the human mind can rationalize whatever it wants. I'm just telling you my point of view. God intervenes in all horrific things that happen, maybe your just not there to see it. BUT I respect your point of view. I don't have all the answers for you, its a leap of faith. Have I ever seen God or Jesus, NO. Do I believe they exist - absolutely because I can see the beauty, the works, the way people live their lives in return for what HE has done for them. Everyone in the country was watching that football game. All Tim does is wear eye black with a Bible verse on them. His way of giving back to his creator is going on mission trips and preaching the word to prisons and to orphans. I will never say that your wrong. I would never confront you and tell you your wrong. That's why God is mysterious in a sense because there has to be faith involved. He cares about everything - good and bad. However, this is just my beliefs - take from it what you want. I am getting married saturday - wish me luck.
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I have not intended to argue in this thread that God does not exist, or against Christianity in general, or any of that. But I do have a certain level of contempt for the simplistic conception of a God who intervenes constantly in our lives, but then gives him a pass for all the cruelty and evil that walks hand in hand with all the beauty in the world. Example: I'm already hearing about the "miracle" yesterday with the plane crash. (Lead headline on CNN right now: "God was certainly looking out for all of us.") But if we ought to praise God for saving all those people yesterday, why don't we blame him when planes crash and kill everyone on board? Does God only intervene to do good things for people? That's not theology; that's Santa Claus for adults. With hell forever and ever waiting for the bad kids.

That's what I dislike about Tebow and other athletes who seem to imply that God makes them score touchdowns. Few of them will come out and say it directly -- because it's ridiculous, isn't it? -- but when you thank God after winning, and you point up at the sky after you make good plays, then the subtext is pretty obvious. Show me an athlete who points up at the sky after throwing an interception or losing a fumble and maybe I'll take seriously the notion that they're just thanking God for their talent.

Good luck with the wedding. The institution of marriage is absolute proof that whatever else he might be, God has a little bit of a mean sense of humor.
 
#289
#289
Mach5Vol said:
Not being mean but you are ignorant on the God of the Bible. Read the book of Job and for that matter the gospels to get an idea of part of the character of God.
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I spent 18 years growing up in a conservative Southern Protestant church, twice on Sundays and again on Wednesday nights. I know all about the Bible; I've read the whole thing cover to cover three or four times in my life. Don't make me start hauling out all those fabulous passages in the Old Testament that Christians have to pretend don't mean anything.

The Book of Job is by far the best writing in the Bible because it's the only part that takes the problem of human suffering seriously and realizes that, while we are here on earth at least, there are ultimately no satisfactory answers. (Or at least it came to that conclusion before the framing story in which Job gets rich again was added in by a later writer, as all Biblical scholars seem to agree happened.) In Job, God doesn't try to explain suffering away by claiming that this world doesn't matter, or that it's all for the best, or even that there will be justice in the end. God essentially just tells Job: get over it. You can't understand, and you're never going to understand. And that's all the answer any of us ever gets.


God is not asking anyone to do anything he hasn't already done. I'm not sure anyone on here has said God cares about how a football bounces, I think you are extrapolating that from the fact that God cares about the players on the field.
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Several people in this thread have argued that God uses football games to glorify himself. I assume that means that think that he has a hand in how things turn out.

No one can explain why natural disasters occur, but we cannot create a God that doesn't exist. God's character is revealed through the bible. God is love, He does love us, He does give us what is undue to us, but in the good way. We are deserving of eternal punishment for sinning against a good and perfect God, but His grace saves us. We can't ignore God and all His blessings in the good times, and then curse Him in the bad times.
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But isn't it just as fallacious to do the opposite? Many people praise God in the good times, but ignore him when things go horribly wrong. If God was truly "watching out for" those people yesterday, then where was he looking when, say, the ValuJet plane crashed into the Everglades?

This is my entire point. The problem of evil and suffering becomes a heck of a lot more immediate and glaring if there really is an active God, constantly influencing every little thing this way and that. Because he certainly does appear to cherry-pick his spots sometimes, doesn't he?
 
#290
#290
Vercingetorix said:
I have not intended to argue in this thread that God does not exist, or against Christianity in general, or any of that. But I do have a certain level of contempt for the simplistic conception of a God who intervenes constantly in our lives, but then gives him a pass for all the cruelty and evil that walks hand in hand with all the beauty in the world. Example: I'm already hearing about the "miracle" yesterday with the plane crash. (Lead headline on CNN right now: "God was certainly looking out for all of us.") But if we ought to praise God for saving all those people yesterday, why don't we blame him when planes crash and kill everyone on board? Does God only intervene to do good things for people? That's not theology; that's Santa Claus for adults. With hell forever and ever waiting for the bad kids.

That's what I dislike about Tebow and other athletes who seem to imply that God makes them score touchdowns. Few of them will come out and say it directly -- because it's ridiculous, isn't it? -- but when you thank God after winning, and you point up at the sky after you make good plays, then the subtext is pretty obvious. Show me an athlete who points up at the sky after throwing an interception or losing a fumble and maybe I'll take seriously the notion that they're just thanking God for their talent.

Good luck with the wedding. The institution of marriage is absolute proof that whatever else he might be, God has a little bit of a mean sense of humor.
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God doesn't make them score touchdowns and I think they would happily admit it. However, God gives them the athletic ability to play the game they have grown to love AND for that they thank Him for giving he/she that ability. Just because you're a Christian and have a close walk doesn't mean someone can jump off a building and fly. God does not make them score touchdowns, he simply has given them the ability to score touchdowns. He/she must work hard at what they do to uncover what abilities one has. The institution of marriage will be upon me directly, ha. Sorry my posts are sometimes rambling. I try to point out my view.
 
#291
#291
VictoryVille101 said:
God doesn't make them score touchdowns and I think they would happily admit it. However, God gives them the athletic ability to play the game they have grown to love AND for that they thank Him for giving he/she that ability. Just because you're a Christian and have a close walk doesn't mean someone can jump off a building and fly. God does not make them score touchdowns, he simply has given them the ability to score touchdowns. He/she must work hard at what they do to uncover what abilities one has. The institution of marriage will be upon me directly, ha. Sorry my posts are sometimes rambling. I try to point out my view.
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I wonder why God given athletic ability appears to be genetically passed on?
 
#294
#294
You have to be blind as a bat to deny that Tebow draws attention to himself. That is all I have left to say on the subject.
 
#296
#296
Lexvol said:
You have to be blind as a bat to deny that Tebow draws attention to himself. That is all I have left to say on the subject.
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You think Tebow draws attention to himself or the media blows everything waaay out of proportion? Besides, what does this have to do with anything?
 
#300
#300
BigPapaVol said:
I wonder why God given athletic ability appears to be genetically passed on?
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An excellent question. A related one would be: if God "gives" kids like Tebow a special ability to play football, at least in any way in which the personal word "give" means anything, then does he also "give" other kids Down's syndrome, handicaps, and cancer?
 
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