If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

[tvolsfan]

Umm, no except that someone considered to be one of the best recruiters of his time had finished 35th in 2008 with those same facilities coming off an appearance in the SEC Championship Game.

That's pretty much what I said there smart guy. If you were as smart as you think you are you might learn reading comprehension.

Dooley DID recruit the players that the current coach has been successful with to this point. He did by EVERY ACCOUNT improve the programs operations and facilities. He managed both programs well as HC but he CANNOT coach. He laid a foundation but could not build on it. That took and will take a "substantially better coach".

No. He was not incompetent at "everything else". He could not coach. He made some pretty bad hires on his second shot at hiring a staff too.

He DID recruit some VERY good players. He avg'd about the same number of "stars" according to Rivals as Fulmer did... right around 3.4. He did that without ever proving he could coach. He did a good job recruiting if not very good considering what he had to sell over. The Vols do not have constant police calls now. Losses due to drugs are fewer.

He can manage a program... He simply cannot coach a team.

Dooley was extremely incompetent. We keep him for two more years and we're Colorado.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Dooley was extremely incompetent. We keep him for two more years and we're Colorado.

I think sjt18, pretty much admits this while pointing out that DD did do some good. What amazes me is the inability of some fans here to admit the same. They say love is blind, but I say maybe it is but hate and spite has -20/-20 sight. Heck man, even Hitler had an upside. Do you know he's responsible for the existence of gas sipping VW Beetle? Or influenced Dwight Eisenhower to build the American multi-lane highway system? And make the major roads wide enough to handle take off and landings of fighter planes existing in the 1946-1950 eras? Nope, I'm not a Hitler fan but I can admit something too many of us can't:

There is so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
That it hardly behooves any of us
To find fault with the rest of us.

--Edward Wallis Hoch--

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

I think sjt18, pretty much admits this while pointing out that DD did do some good. What amazes me is the inability of some fans here to admit the same. They say love is blind, but I say maybe it is but hate and spite has -20/-20 sight. Heck man, even Hitler had an upside. Do you know he's responsible for the existence of gas sipping VW Beetle? Or influenced Dwight Eisenhower to build the American multi-lane highway system? And make the major roads wide enough to handle take off and landings of fighter planes existing in the 1946-1950 eras? Nope, I'm not a Hitler fan but I can admit something too many of us can't:

There is so much good in the worst of us,
And so much bad in the best of us,
That it hardly behooves any of us
To find fault with the rest of us.

--Edward Wallis Hoch--

Not sure if serious.

It was bad enough Dooley comparing the Vols to the Nazi Army, but upside to Hitler? I hope this was as tongue-in-cheek as the OP.

 

[VOLnMiami]

Tennessee has never lost 8 games in a season. Some think this is not outside the realm of possibility in Coach Butch Jones's first year at the helm.

Do we fire Butch if he loses 8?

My personal feelings are he would have to be eating Dooley Wacky Bambacky to lose 8.

If we do lose 8 next year though, I think it is grounds to fire Hart (might as well include Cheek while we're at it), and the next's guys first job is to line up the next guy. CBJ have to win something special in Y2 to carry-on.

We let Dooley carry-on after the KY loss, and I think we all agree it was a huge, huge mistake.

Wow....I remember my first beer too kid...You obviously have not been around college athletics very long and how it works....You do not fire a coach after one season lol:

 

[tvolsfan]

I think sjt18, pretty much admits this while pointing out that DD did do some good. What amazes me is the inability of some fans here to admit the same.

Dooley did almost no good. I can't believe some people can't admit that. He couldn't even get his "high character, diamond in the rough" types to go to class.

 

[sjt18]

Dooley was extremely incompetent. We keep him for two more years and we're Colorado.

I have NEVER said he should have been kept longer than he was. I said after USCe that UT should make the announcement and finish with an interim to give more time to find the right guy and have as much recruiting time left as possible. I even said with Dooley as I am saying with Jones that he had to prove something by year 3 or the damage to the program in recruiting would be too great of a risk.

He was an incompetent gameday coach. He however did serve an important purpose for a program that had fallen as far as UT had fallen by the end of the Fulmer era. Like everyone else, I invite you to go back and look at the roster he left. He had not recruited OL's or DL's well for 2 or 3 years. In fact, recruiting had fallen off under Fulmer to the point that UT was choosing between less talented players with the character and academics to stay eligible and very talented but high risk players.

IT was HIS 3 consecutive recruiting class busts that Kiffin and Dooley had to deal with and try to overcome. The program and roster are better now than they were 3 and 4 years ago when the last two new coaches took over.

 

[sjt18]

Dooley did almost no good. I can't believe some people can't admit that. He couldn't even get his "high character, diamond in the rough" types to go to class.

Go compare the roster Dooley inherited to the roster now.

Go compare the numbers of arrests and other misdemeanors in Fulmer's last 3 years compared to those of Dooley's 3 years. You can even compare the physical development of the players and find improvement.

Dooley was not a great "coach" and definitely not a good gameday coach. He was a good administrator of the program.

 

[sjt18]

Would you say that a collective 2.08 GPA is indicative of a disciplined team?

I would say that I would like to see the details. I deal with numbers every day. Superficial analysis of numbers leads to more bad decisions than flipping a coin or acting on whim.

I would also say that guys like CP and Sentimore had pretty much already blown school off and then the left early while more than likely not in good academic standing. I would also say that if the players who pulled the average down were still on the roster... more of them wouldn't be eligible to participate in football related activities.

Dooley was pretty desperate by the end and pretty much quit altogether when he recognized he was done... which was sometime between the UK loss '11 and Mizzou loss '12. So yes. He appears to have stopped following up on academic performance because he appears to have quit caring about a UT program future that he had no part in.

AND YES, he's worthy of condemnation for not having the character to finish strong even when he had nothing to gain.

I would be far more interested in the "discipline" and academics of the guys returning. And most of them were signed by Dooley.

 

[sjt18]

Someone who got fired. You're not helping your case.

So when the program still had a reputation for winning to build on and with many recruits still remembering Fulmer's national championship... he avg'd around 3.4 "stars". Dooley with the program at its lowest point in years and with many questions about his ability to coach avg'd about 3.4 stars... Yes. That helps my case. And ftr, Dooley also got fired but it wasn't for failing to bring in talent. It was for failing to coach it and win with it. When all is said and done, MOST of last year's starters will be on an NFL roster. Compare that to the rosters that Fulmer left and you will once again be forced to see "progress".

Don't act like we said the same thing. Louisiana Tech had better teams before Dooley and they're better immediately after he left.

Dooley went 19-20 while the previous 3 years were 16-20. Not much improvement in winning. But I still have not said that he was a good coach, have I? He was a good administrator who brought in better players and improved the program's operation. That comes from La Tech fans.

The fact that he got their stadium renovated or some s**t does not at all mean that he laid some kind of "necessary foundation" for their success now.

You really and truly are committed aren't you? Why is it so hard for you to say that someone who failed overall did not fail in every detail? Why do you have to turn this kind of thing into an issue of your personal hatred for some coach who dared to disappoint almighty YOU?

You tell me where he succeeded.

I am not going to waste bandwidth to post it again. I never said he did everything perfect. I am not saying he was a great guy. And in no way whatsoever am I saying that he didn't make significant mistakes. I said he left a program with less off the field problems and a better roster than the one he found. You want to act as if had he not recruited then those players would have just shown up on their own.

And it seems interesting to me that even with all the buzz Jones has created.... his current commit star avg... is 3.4. Dooley avg'd... just a tad over 3.4. I want nothing more than for Jones to be the greatest coach ever but perception is overwhelming reality right now a little bit. There's more to see before he can be declared a "great" recruiter. Since 2002, 3.4 or there abouts is pretty much what UT has avg'd. So basically Dooley convinced about the same level of recruits to sign with UT than better coaches did.

He along with Kiffin.... and time... purged the cancer that had infected the program under Fulmer. And before you focus on the "time" part only... it would not have been a factor if he had continued to recruit and conduct business like Fulmer did.

 

[sjt18]

Dooley did almost no good. I can't believe some people can't admit that. He couldn't even get his "high character, diamond in the rough" types to go to class.

Help me out and cite the list of player GPA's that demonstrate who exactly brought the avg down. It would seem that if it were current players more of them would be ineligible to participate in team activities and on academic probation, right?

 

[Burger]

Help me out and cite the list of player GPA's that demonstrate who exactly brought the avg down. It would seem that if it were current players more of them would be ineligible to participate in team activities and on academic probation, right?

2.08 means our football team had a lot of idiots under Dooley. All the academic casualties were ran off by Butch in December like Omari Phillips and Trent Taylor.

 

[NashVol11]

Dooley was pretty desperate by the end and pretty much quit altogether when he recognized he was done... which was sometime between the UK loss '11 and Mizzou loss '12. So yes. He appears to have stopped following up on academic performance because he appears to have quit caring about a UT program future that he had no part in.

AND YES, he's worthy of condemnation for not having the character to finish strong even when he had nothing to gain.

That was from fall 2011, so try again. To anyone with a brain, that's an indefensible number, but I applaud your efforts.

 

[NashVol11]

So when the program still had a reputation for winning to build on and with many recruits still remembering Fulmer's national championship... he avg'd around 3.4 "stars". Dooley with the program at its lowest point in years and with many questions about his ability to coach avg'd about 3.4 stars... Yes. That helps my case. And ftr, Dooley also got fired but it wasn't for failing to bring in talent. It was for failing to coach it and win with it. When all is said and done, MOST of last year's starters will be on an NFL roster. Compare that to the rosters that Fulmer left and you will once again be forced to see "progress".

Yep, you definitely missed the point. I never said our roster didn't improve; I simply said that those "improvements" could have been made by literally anyone this side of Woody Widenhofer. Given the resources we have, a top-20 class is the absolute minimum we should expect. You said "Yeah, but Fulmer had a class outside the top 20" and I said, "Yes, and he didn't even make it through the next season." So no. That doesn't help your case at all.

He was a good administrator who brought in better players and improved the program's operation. Why is it so hard for you to say that someone who failed overall did not fail in every detail? Why do you have to turn this kind of thing into an issue of your personal hatred for some coach who dared to disappoint almighty YOU?

Never have I said that I hate the guy. I just think "At least my terrible coach was a good athletic director" is akin to "At least my terrible attorney is a good home decorator."

 

[Oskie Volum]

Sort of a strange patch job he did, since the program got worse every year he was here. Hope his wife isn't that lousy as a doctor.

This comment shows me the type of person u really are. No understanding of the concept of "taking a step back to take a stride forward" or "things get worse than better". Anyone with the understanding/experience of rebuilding understands this.

Also no need to bring the guys wife into any of this. That's just a pathetic loser move.

Did you just say that Dooley was given a tough situation and rebuilt the program, and that he left Jones a 4-8 caliber team, in back-to-back posts?

I've said it before this team should be a 7-9 win team. If it were Dooley I would be more confident of it cause he would finally have less kinks in his system with the team purged of negatives that haunted him from previous HCs.

Now we have an SEC neophyte that has to put in a new system and with more kinks to work out. A very tough schedule too against the best in the business. If u can't understand the factors that could cause a 4-8 season on ur own that's pretty sad.

 

[NashVol11]

I've said it before this team should be a 7-9 win team. If it were Dooley I would be more confident of it cause he would finally have less kinks in his system with the team purged of negatives that haunted him from previous HCs.

Hahahahahahahahahaha.

That is all.

 

[tvolsfan]

Go compare the roster Dooley inherited to the roster now.

Go compare the numbers of arrests and other misdemeanors in Fulmer's last 3 years compared to those of Dooley's 3 years. You can even compare the physical development of the players and find improvement.

Dooley was not a great "coach" and definitely not a good gameday coach. He was a good administrator of the program.

This roster is horrific. He was not good at anything. We need a great year academically to even be eligible for a bowl game in 2014. I'm not sure what physical development and improvement you're referring to. All I see is a coach who took a bad situation and took a step further back every year. Somehow you're trying to declare him a good administrator based on no evidence whatsoever. All the evidence makes him seem like a disgrace to the school and conference.

 

[Coug]

Some seriously harsh people in here. Some responses are far worse than the OP.

 

[LittleCat]

I've said it before this team should be a 7-9 win team.

doh!

 

[VolsRule]

hart should have been fired the day he hired dooley with a losing record at lowly la tech

 

[LotteryPick]

I've said it before this team should be a 7-9 win team. If it were Dooley I would be more confident of it cause he would finally have less kinks in his system with the team purged of negatives that haunted him from previous HCs.

Wait, wait, wait. You still think Dooley can coach?

There is absolutely no way he would have won more than 5 games. How can you expect a team to win, when they refuse to buy into the head coach?

 

[volleyvol]

Yea 152-52.......he sure needed to be fired!

What was his record without David Cutcliffe? I will always love and appreciate Coach Fulmer, but it was time for him to move on.

 

[volleyvol]

Answer this....would we of won more games with Fulmer or Dooley/Kiffin?



/end discussion

About the same.

 

[volleyvol]

I think we will have a rather decent 2013 season. It will be the 2014 season that kicks our patootie. We loose too much after 2013 and not enough proven or even unproven depth to make up for it.

Exactly! Games are won at the line of scrimmage, and graduation is going to hurt our lines after this season. I think 2013 could be a decent season for us (possibly upsetting a team or 2), but I think we'll take a step back in 2014.

 

[volleyvol]

After reading the first few sentences of your manifesto I didnt need to read any further. If you cant get your facts correct then no reason to waste anyone's time.

He was fired in 2009. So winning the SEC East in 08 and going the the SECCG is getting "blown out". Yeah, your lack of UT and fb history is only surpassed by your lack of understanding the game. There's a special place in Walmart for you.

Wow! The irony!

 

[volleyvol]

This roster is horrific. He was not good at anything. We need a great year academically to even be eligible for a bowl game in 2014. I'm not sure what physical development and improvement you're referring to. All I see is a coach who took a bad situation and took a step further back every year. Somehow you're trying to declare him a good administrator based on no evidence whatsoever. All the evidence makes him seem like a disgrace to the school and conference.

1. The APR situation was blown way out of proportion, imo.

2. You can't, with a straight face, tell me this year's roster is in worse shape than the 2010 roster. Dooley couldn't coach a lick, but he definitely improved the roster.