If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

[Oskie Volum]

Enough talent and experience to win at least 6 games this season. If CBJ truly "gets it" then that's what he should do at the minimum. And this fanbase should require that especially if u sit here and say he's a better coach than Dooley.

Now with that said if he losses 8games (which isn't impossible unfortunately) for the first time in history, and leaves oh st (which is a school I HATE with a passion) as the only team in cfb to have that distinction CBJ will have trouble rebounding. Gets fired...no. But his seat is going to be hot hot hot, and The Legion of the Miserable that right now are hibernating will come out in force. Will it be good for the program...no. But after seeing how bipolar this fan base over the last few yrs it's a safe bet. Hart will need to go if cbj doesnt pan out, and would like to see cheek go but don't see that happening over this. Just wishful thinking.

Losing 8 games for the first time in ut history is way worse than losing to KY. No ands if buts about it.

Just IMHO that's all...GBO!

 

[sanddune50]

Best post in the thread.

Not really. And seeing as though you started this thread, I don't see you as qualified to even vote for the best post.

 

[UTandUNC]

Tennessee has never lost 8 games in a season. Some think this is not outside the realm of possibility in Coach Butch Jones's first year at the helm.

Do we fire Butch if he loses 8?

My personal feelings are he would have to be eating Dooley Wacky Bambacky to lose 8.

If we do lose 8 next year though, I think it is grounds to fire Hart (might as well include Cheek while we're at it), and the next's guys first job is to line up the next guy. CBJ have to win something special in Y2 to carry-on.

We let Dooley carry-on after the KY loss, and I think we all agree it was a huge, huge mistake.

Nominated for dumb post of the year!

 

[sjt18]

Enough talent and experience to win at least 6 games this season. If CBJ truly "gets it" then that's what he should do at the minimum. And this fanbase should require that especially if u sit here and say he's a better coach than Dooley.

Agreed except I think the number is 7 and not six. He plays 6 teams which he should have a roster advantage over. He plays 2-3 others whose rosters are close enough that if he outcoaches the other guy then the Vols can win.

And THAT is what UT NEEDS... not a coach that can coach his team to the level of the sum of its talent but a coach that can get MORE than the roster's sum of talent in production.

If all he can do is get the "average" from his players then just accept the 2nd or 3rd tier status UT has assumed since sometime around 2002... don't talk about championships or being an "elite" national program. If six wins is really and truly good enough this fall... then don't complain when UT persistently gets beat by the top tier programs in the future... because what you've endorsed is an "average" coach.

 

[oregonvol]

Enough talent and experience to win at least 6 games this season. If CBJ truly "gets it" then that's what he should do at the minimum. And this fanbase should require that especially if u sit here and say he's a better coach than Dooley.

Here's a more interesting question (to me at least)..if Butch Jones wins 7 games this season, will you admit that he's a far better coach than Dooley?

 

[bullet20]

but this may be the most ridiculous spelling of ridiculous in the history of message boards.

:lolabove:

 

[1972 Grad]

but this may be the most ridiculous spelling of ridiculous in the history of message boards.

That isn't how I looked at the spelling. The "s" and "d" are next to each other on the keyboard. I think he was saying that it was one of the most ridiculed threads on the forum, and hit the wrong letter.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Here's a more interesting question (to me at least)..if Butch Jones wins 7 games this season, will you admit that he's a far better coach than Dooley?

Who the hell wouldn't?

If Dooley could only win 5 with last year's squad - Jones winning 7 this year (with a tougher schedule) is like comparing the Hanson Brothers to Van Halen.

 

[sjt18]

Here's a more interesting question (to me at least)..if Butch Jones wins 7 games this season, will you admit that he's a far better coach than Dooley?

Dooley won 6 his first year with a worse roster and against a schedule that was at least as difficult if not more so. Better? Maybe. Much better? I would not be willing to go that far yet.

Before arguing the conclusion, let's make sure we accept the same premise. Dooley arrived with no returning QB's, one returning OL capable of starting for a D-1 team, two good but not yet great WR's, one very good TE but no depth, a career 3rd string RB as the only real option, no DT's, weak LB's, and a secondary where the only really good player had problems staying on the field. His schedule included Cincy OOC plus Bama, Arkansas (in the good days), and LSU from the west plus the East.

Jones inherits one of the top 5 OL's in the country, 2 returning RB's that combined for 1300 yds and around 5 ypc last year, 2 returning QB's (one with some starting experience), and then talent but little experience at TE and WR. On D, a pretty good first 5 at DT, 4-6 SEC level DE talents, a thin but talented LB corps, and good talent 1 or two deep in the secondary. The schedule gains Oregon, Auburn, and Mizzou to replace the three besides Bama above.


I suggest that Jones' scenario is more favorable than Dooley's scenario. Jones, if a better coach, should get more wins than Dooley. If a much better coach then.....

 

[sjt18]

Who the hell wouldn't?

If Dooley could only win 5 with last year's squad - Jones winning 7 this year (with a tougher schedule) is like comparing the Hanson Brothers to Van Halen.

You can't really compare Dooley's last year after he completely lost control to Jones' first year. Compare their first years. They are very similar except Dooley's circumstances when he arrived and roster were worse.

I hope that Jones is a great coach. There are indications that he may well be a great coach. But most people here are saying that if he accomplishes LESS than Dooley did his first year that the results will be acceptable... some even say GREAT.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

You can't really compare Dooley's last year after he completely lost control to Jones' first year. Compare their first years. They are very similar except Dooley's circumstances when he arrived and roster were worse.

I hope that Jones is a great coach. There are indications that he may well be a great coach. But most people here are saying that if he accomplishes LESS than Dooley did his first year that the results will be acceptable... some even say GREAT.

I actually agree with a lot of your Dooley vs Jones analysis (which seems strange - I don't remember us agreeing on much).

Still, Dooley put in WORK to lose to Missouri last year. He put in WORK to lose to MS State.

We lost a ton of star power on offense, and our defense never had similar level playmakers to make that a wash. CP was the most electric Vol with the football since Chuck Webb. Hunter was the second coming of Alvin Harper. We just have no similar game changer on defense; in fact, AJ probably affected games more on OFFENSE last year.

We cannot take Auburn for granted. Chizik is gone, and the equivalent of David Cutcliffe is now the man in charge. That team has talent, and can make noise with the right coach.

How we perform against Oregon on the road and Auburn will tell us a lot about CBJ next year. I would actually pencil in Oregon as an upset special. We match up well against them. Our O-Line can dominate their front 7; we can really slow down that game and get them nervous. Who knows what happens with a costly turnover? We do need our young receivers to make a few plays though.

 

[volgrad500]

Haven't read the whole thread, but it's funny as hell that not only does the thread exist, but there were multiple ones so that they had to merge lol

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Dooley won 6 his first year with a worse roster and against a schedule that was at least as difficult if not more so. Better? Maybe. Much better? I would not be willing to go that far yet.

Before arguing the conclusion, let's make sure we accept the same premise. Dooley arrived with no returning QB's, one returning OL capable of starting for a D-1 team, two good but not yet great WR's, one very good TE but no depth, a career 3rd string RB as the only real option, no DT's, weak LB's, and a secondary where the only really good player had problems staying on the field. His schedule included Cincy OOC plus Bama, Arkansas (in the good days), and LSU from the west plus the East.

Jones inherits one of the top 5 OL's in the country, 2 returning RB's that combined for 1300 yds and around 5 ypc last year, 2 returning QB's (one with some starting experience), and then talent but little experience at TE and WR. On D, a pretty good first 5 at DT, 4-6 SEC level DE talents, a thin but talented LB corps, and good talent 1 or two deep in the secondary. The schedule gains Oregon, Auburn, and Mizzou to replace the three besides Bama above.


I suggest that Jones' scenario is more favorable than Dooley's scenario. Jones, if a better coach, should get more wins than Dooley. If a much better coach then.....

Forget it. You're talking common sense. Too many mono-optic posters here wouldn't know what that is if it took a baseball bat and hit them upside the head. Then performed futuristic brain surgery that upgraded their IQ by 600% percentile points.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

No. Tennessee could go 0-12 and CBJ keeps his job. Although fwiw I think Tennessee is more likely to go 8-4 than 4-8.

I don't think either of those outcomes are likely.

 

[tvolsfan]

Do we fire Butch if he loses 8?

Not unless Bill Belichick is publicly lobbing for the job.

 

[bigeasy]

OP should be banned......



I can only hope he was not being serious...

 

[PowerWookie]

booooo

 

[k-town_king]

Dooley won 6 his first year with a worse roster and against a schedule that was at least as difficult if not more so. Better? Maybe. Much better? I would not be willing to go that far yet.

Before arguing the conclusion, let's make sure we accept the same premise. Dooley arrived with no returning QB's, one returning OL capable of starting for a D-1 team, two good but not yet great WR's, one very good TE but no depth, a career 3rd string RB as the only real option, no DT's, weak LB's, and a secondary where the only really good player had problems staying on the field. His schedule included Cincy OOC plus Bama, Arkansas (in the good days), and LSU from the west plus the East.

Jones inherits one of the top 5 OL's in the country, 2 returning RB's that combined for 1300 yds and around 5 ypc last year, 2 returning QB's (one with some starting experience), and then talent but little experience at TE and WR. On D, a pretty good first 5 at DT, 4-6 SEC level DE talents, a thin but talented LB corps, and good talent 1 or two deep in the secondary. The schedule gains Oregon, Auburn, and Mizzou to replace the three besides Bama above.


I suggest that Jones' scenario is more favorable than Dooley's scenario. Jones, if a better coach, should get more wins than Dooley. If a much better coach then.....

Dooley had D Moore who starts in the NFL and G Jones in addition to JH/DR at wr. He inherited Bryce Brown who set a rookie rushing record in the NFL. He inherited Aaron Douglass on the line also, not to mention Juwan James was already enrolled. Also Bray, an Elite 11 qb was on campus.

 

[oregonvol]

Who the hell wouldn't?

If Dooley could only win 5 with last year's squad - Jones winning 7 this year (with a tougher schedule) is like comparing the Hanson Brothers to Van Halen.

Yeah, I think I was misunderstood. I don't think there is any question Butch Jones is better than Dooley. Dooley failed as HC at multiple stops. Jones has succeeded. What made my question interesting, to me at least, was whether Oskie would recognize it, given his love for Dooley.

 

[Oskie Volum]

Agreed except I think the number is 7 and not six. He plays 6 teams which he should have a roster advantage over. He plays 2-3 others whose rosters are close enough that if he outcoaches the other guy then the Vols can win.

And THAT is what UT NEEDS... not a coach that can coach his team to the level of the sum of its talent but a coach that can get MORE than the roster's sum of talent in production.

If all he can do is get the "average" from his players then just accept the 2nd or 3rd tier status UT has assumed since sometime around 2002... don't talk about championships or being an "elite" national program. If six wins is really and truly good enough this fall... then don't complain when UT persistently gets beat by the top tier programs in the future... because what you've endorsed is an "average" coach.

Oh don't get me wrong I totally agree with him needing to win 7+ to make me feel somewhat comfortable with the guy. But just to many on here would go nuts on me (which isn't hard to do) if I said I expected any more. I've said it before I'd be comfortable with 7-9. 10+ would actually worry me some cause it could create a false hope. Ala Hokes first yr at Mich to drop the next yr. I'm thinking it may happen to the Aggies this yr 2. The SEC isn't forgiving like the big 10.

Btw - ur comparison post said we are adding Oregon this yr and that's different than Dooley's first yr. We played Oregon that yr and the top 3 in the west like u mentioned.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Not unless Bill Belichick is publicly lobbing for the job.

What if Gruden is watching Tennessee games on airplanes and taking notes at the same time?

 

[mscox75]

Tennessee has never lost 8 games in a season. Some think this is not outside the realm of possibility in Coach Butch Jones's first year at the helm.

Do we fire Butch if he loses 8?

My personal feelings are he would have to be eating Dooley Wacky Bambacky to lose 8.

If we do lose 8 next year though, I think it is grounds to fire Hart (might as well include Cheek while we're at it), and the next's guys first job is to line up the next guy. CBJ have to win something special in Y2 to carry-on.

We let Dooley carry-on after the KY loss, and I think we all agree it was a huge, huge mistake.

I really dislike people like you. Your premediated thoughts that may or may not happen in life will cause you great strain in relationships and in your own life. Do you honestly sit at your computer and wonder what people must do wrong that may cause them to lose their jobs, relationships,etc.......M

Not saying Butch is going to own it, but repairing a broken ship doesn't take 1 year, or 2. A good executive, in this case Hart needs to explain that to the customer. (fans). After 2 years then we start judging a man on the product he is displaying.

However, he has upgraded the X's and O's of this program. Brought alum back to give it a vibe of what it used to be like.

On an ending note. Don't premediatate on bad thoughts, only good ones!

 

[jaxvol69]

Tennessee has never lost 8 games in a season. Some think this is not outside the realm of possibility in Coach Butch Jones's first year at the helm.

Do we fire Butch if he loses 8?

My personal feelings are he would have to be eating Dooley Wacky Bambacky to lose 8.

If we do lose 8 next year though, I think it is grounds to fire Hart (might as well include Cheek while we're at it), and the next's guys first job is to line up the next guy. CBJ have to win something special in Y2 to carry-on.

We let Dooley carry-on after the KY loss, and I think we all agree it was a huge, huge mistake.

Who comes up with this crap, I mean REALLY?:crazy:

 

[Oskie Volum]

Yeah, I think I was misunderstood. I don't think there is any question Butch Jones is better than Dooley. Dooley failed as HC at multiple stops. Jones has succeeded. What made my question interesting, to me at least, was whether Oskie would recognize it, given his love for Dooley.

I don't see the situations as the same. CBJ has taken over 2 programs that have been set up to succeed. The 2 stops that Dooley has had as a HC have not been normal situations. "Rebuilds.". Ive said it multiple times that I can't judge Dooley as a HC only cause he never had the opportunity to be just a HC. The second Dooley stepped on campus he had to fill the HC/AD role with so much going on. The program/AD was hemoraging and he needed to stop the bleeding. He did, patched it up, and now CBJ is in charge of making sure it heals up right. Totally 2 different types of situation.

Frankly it's not any kind of "love" for the guy other than just seeing his situation different than others do. Also, I'm not some tool on a MSG board that believes I can bash the guy the way people do on here as if they could do any better.

 

[Oskie Volum]

I really dislike people like you. Your premediated thoughts that may or may not happen in life will cause you great strain in relationships and in your own life. Do you honestly sit at your computer and wonder what people must do wrong that may cause them to lose their jobs, relationships,etc.......M

Not saying Butch is going to own it, but repairing a broken ship doesn't take 1 year, or 2. A good executive, in this case Hart needs to explain that to the customer. (fans). After 2 years then we start judging a man on the product he is displaying.

However, he has upgraded the X's and O's of this program. Brought alum back to give it a vibe of what it used to be like.

On an ending note. Don't premediatate on bad thoughts, only good ones!

This how things get bad without realizing it. I don't care for the op much don't get me wrong. His approach to things is not good, but coming out with possibilities to discuss them is not a bad thing. This ship might be broken but it's not sinking like when Dooley took over. Losing 8 games for the first time in UT history is a real possibility and will be a huge negative on the program. Bigger than losing to KY for the first time in 26 yrs. This fan base never got over that, and Dooley couldn't get over that hump. CBJ won't either.

I had a friends grandfather describe a person like u to me once simply as "someone that is afraid to look down in the toilet before flushing".