If we go 4 - 8 do we fire Butch? (merged)

[oregonvol]

I don't see the situations as the same. CBJ has taken over 2 programs that have been set up to succeed. The 2 stops that Dooley has had as a HC have not been normal situations. "Rebuilds.". Ive said it multiple times that I can't judge Dooley as a HC only cause he never had the opportunity to be just a HC. The second Dooley stepped on campus he had to fill the HC/AD role with so much going on. The program/AD was hemoraging and he needed to stop the bleeding. He did, patched it up, and now CBJ is in charge of making sure it heals up right. Totally 2 different types of situation.

Frankly it's not any kind of "love" for the guy other than just seeing his situation different than others do. Also, I'm not some tool on a MSG board that believes I can bash the guy the way people do on here as if they could do any better.

Sort of a strange patch job he did, since the program got worse every year he was here. Hope his wife isn't that lousy as a doctor.

 

[sjt18]

IStill, Dooley put in WORK to lose to Missouri last year. He put in WORK to lose to MS State.

I am not excusing Dooley. He had his chance. It was a tough task but he signed up for it. When he was fired (actually by around the USCe game last year), he had demonstrated that he was not going to succeed and had to be fired.

That said, Dooley in the first year was quite different from Dooley in his last year. I am not claiming he was ever the coach to bring UT championships. But in the first year at least he had not given up. He was still full of hope. I have seen it happen with leaders in other professions. They just get smothered and overwhelmed then they lose hope... then they give up or even stop having desire.

We lost a ton of star power on offense, and our defense never had similar level playmakers to make that a wash.

I honestly do not think it would take much for one WR or two combined to make up for what Hunter did last year. I am a fan of the guy but he mailed last season in. He was playing not to get hurt so he could go pro. Three ZR type players would make up for the loss of those two.

CP was the most electric Vol with the football since Chuck Webb.

You get one of those once a decade or less. He is a physical freak. No other CFB team last year that I know of had one like him. That's how a guy with so little football skill gets drafted that high.

Hunter was the second coming of Alvin Harper.

Before the injury? Sure. After the injury.... lazy routes, dropped passes, little effort blocking, looked for a soft place to land after catching passes rather than trying to get extra yardage.... He didn't make those acrobatic catches like we saw before the injury either. I still contend that guys who play solid can replace what he produced last year. Croom and North could easily be more productive if they play all out.

We just have no similar game changer on defense; in fact, AJ probably affected games more on OFFENSE last year.

I know that the coaches are different but still believe the D will be much improved going back to the 4-3. More than any other mistake, Dooley's decision to switch to the 3-4 and hire Sunseri destroyed a very good roster's chance of becoming a very good team.

We cannot take Auburn for granted. Chizik is gone, and the equivalent of David Cutcliffe is now the man in charge. That team has talent, and can make noise with the right coach.

Nothing taken for granted. If Jones is the right coach then he's going to win games simply because he outcoaches very good coaches... that would include Malzahn.

And THAT is my biggest conviction that causes me to disagree with the "six wins is great" crowd. UT doesn't need a coach like that. UT needs a coach that takes a 6 win team for an avg coach and wins 8 games with it.

Petrino could never have been considered for the job but he's that kind of coach. And honestly, Jones has been that kind of coach as well.

How we perform against Oregon on the road and Auburn will tell us a lot about CBJ next year. I would actually pencil in Oregon as an upset special. We match up well against them. Our O-Line can dominate their front 7; we can really slow down that game and get them nervous. Who knows what happens with a costly turnover? We do need our young receivers to make a few plays though.

I agree. I think UT will surprise them after going pretty vanilla in the first two games.

I think the real tipping point is UT's DL vs Oregon's OL. If UT can get push up the middle from the DT's and pressure off the edge then they'll have a chance to do what Stanford did (with a less athletic team than UT has).

 

[sjt18]

Dooley had D Moore who starts in the NFL and G Jones in addition to JH/DR at wr. He inherited Bryce Brown who set a rookie rushing record in the NFL. He inherited Aaron Douglass on the line also, not to mention Juwan James was already enrolled. Also Bray, an Elite 11 qb was on campus.

We do not know what one or more of the WR's will do this fall. Prior to that season, Jones was considered more of an NFL prospect than Moore but neither were high on anyone's radar. There is talent on this roster as well. It has to be coached.

Bryce Brown for whatever reason NEVER produced in college. Kiffin tried to give him the job over Hardesty and he couldn't do it. MOST supposed insiders at the time said that Poole was clearly a better player in practice but Kiffin had made promises to Brown. He was 3rd string at KSU and stayed in the doghouse because of attitude... and Bill Snyder IS a coach who has proven he's good. Nonetheless, Lane and Neal return with 658 and 708 yds respectively. Neal's ypc was almost identical to BB's in his Fr year. Lanes was significantly better last year. BB totaled 460 that year which actually turned out to be his college high. So even if BB came back, Lane/Neal return with more proven ability to produce in a college program.

He didn't inherit Douglas. Douglas quit before even getting to know Dooley. His father said he just needed to get away from UT. It was more than likely related to all the personal issues that finally caught up with him. That one really doesn't fall on Dooley. It falls on Kiffin.

James was on campus and Bray was an Elite 11 QB? Really? Seldom does a good OL have even one true Fr much less 3 or 4. DD didn't inherit a QB with even a single practice snap at UT.


Are you really trying to dispute that Jones inherits a much better situation than either Dooley or Kiffin?

 

[sjt18]

One thing worth considering... and source of hope for me... is that Jones has never had a roster with even close to this much athleticism and natural talent. Truth be known, all four of his QB's probably have more raw QB talent than anyone he had at Cincy.

The competition is definitely tougher but the mark of his career is that he takes mid-pack talent and competes for championships with it.

 

[NashVol11]

This how things get bad without realizing it. I don't care for the op much don't get me wrong. His approach to things is not good, but coming out with possibilities to discuss them is not a bad thing. This ship might be broken but it's not sinking like when Dooley took over. Losing 8 games for the first time in UT history is a real possibility and will be a huge negative on the program. Bigger than losing to KY for the first time in 26 yrs. This fan base never got over that, and Dooley couldn't get over that hump. CBJ won't either.

Did you just say that Dooley was given a tough situation and rebuilt the program, and that he left Jones a 4-8 caliber team, in back-to-back posts?

 

[NashVol11]

One thing worth considering... and source of hope for me... is that Jones has never had a roster with even close to this much athleticism and natural talent. Truth be known, all four of his QB's probably have more raw QB talent than anyone he had at Cincy.

The competition is definitely tougher but the mark of his career is that he takes mid-pack talent and competes for championships with it.

You've constantly implied that he beats teams with more talent, but when I ask you for the end-of-season record of the most "talented" team he's beaten, you never seem to have an answer.

 

[sjt18]

Sort of a strange patch job he did, since the program got worse every year he was here. Hope his wife isn't that lousy as a doctor.

The results got worse. The roster didn't. He proved that he couldn't coach on game day... not that he couldn't manage a program. He never proved he was a very good coach at LT either. However he took over one of the worst programs in CFB and left a program that has now had two consecutive winning seasons for only the second time since they became FBS. You keep ignoring how bad the condition of the program was when Dooley arrived and why.

UT's 2007 recruiting class was almost a complete bust. The 2008 class was the worst of Fulmer's career and attrited some of its best players before '10. The 2009 class started by Fulmer with a salvage attempt by Kiffin was also a near complete bust. Players from these three clases should have made up the core of UT's '10 and '11 rosters. Instead, those rosters depended on a critically high number of Fr/So.

Add to that the complete lack of discipline under Fulmer. Do you remember?

Much of what had to be done needed an "administrator". Many of the problems were systemic. Not all good administrators are good coaches. But many good or even great coaches are weak administrators who need staff support.

 

[sjt18]

You've constantly implied that he beats teams with more talent, but when I ask you for the end-of-season record of the most "talented" team he's beaten, you never seem to have an answer.

"Constantly"? The only thing that "constantly" happens is that you exaggerate and make false statements. I have "constantly" claimed nothing of the sort.

Someone other than me had at one time avg'd Cincy's recruiting classes compared to the rest of the BE. I confirmed it at the time and was just looking for it again but Rivals no longer has it.

They were "constantly" mid-pack in recruiting through the years that mattered to Jones.

 

[sjt18]

If Jones loses 8 games with this roster then he is not the coach to take UT back to the championship level. That would be a MASSIVE underachievement with this roster.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

I don't see the situations as the same. CBJ has taken over 2 programs that have been set up to succeed. The 2 stops that Dooley has had as a HC have not been normal situations. "Rebuilds.". Ive said it multiple times that I can't judge Dooley as a HC only cause he never had the opportunity to be just a HC. The second Dooley stepped on campus he had to fill the HC/AD role with so much going on. The program/AD was hemoraging and he needed to stop the bleeding. He did, patched it up, and now CBJ is in charge of making sure it heals up right. Totally 2 different types of situation.

Frankly it's not any kind of "love" for the guy other than just seeing his situation different than others do. Also, I'm not some tool on a MSG board that believes I can bash the guy the way people do on here as if they could do any better.

Don't let the Dooley haters ruin your day or time. Some are so dead set on the hating, they MUST hunt down every crumb of excuse to spout more venom at the guy instead of letting the fact he's gone be the end of it. They must endlessly recite reasons for the hate or nitpick to find some. And ignore any of the positive things Dooley did. I think no one questions his game coaching skills are in doubt given what we saw in 3 years. But the haters can't admit he also got the VFL thing meaningful. That he mainly ended he repetitive thuggish reputation of UT players compared to the past. That he held the recruiting together after the mess that Kiffin left. And generally, reduced our being an SEC laughingstock and even hated which we were in large part due to Kiffin's conduct. I'm not in love with DD but I don't have the spite toward him that one too many here do. Especially those who can't figure out the man is gone, won't be back and we have a very positive future to look forward to with a coach that thusfar seems to know what he's doing. Given the sheer negativism that even to this day surrounds the program, it's a freaking miracle we got a coach of Jones' quality, character, dedication, and background. Instead of having to settle for very possibly a FCS, division IV, or high school coach. So why the heck these people waste time continuing to vomit out Dooley hate is a mystery that should be scheduled on the Paranormal State TV program.

 

[kxtop]

This is undoubtably the most stupid thread on VolNation that I have ever read, and there have really been some unbelievable ones. Not only is the premise of the initial question simply stupid, but the thread is demeaning to Butch Jones (before he coached one game!) but is an insult to a great program that has recently been through a tough run.

 

[NashVol11]

The results got worse. The roster didn't. He proved that he couldn't coach on game day... not that he couldn't manage a program. He never proved he was a very good coach at LT either. However he took over one of the worst programs in CFB and left a program that has now had two consecutive winning seasons for only the second time since they became FBS. You keep ignoring how bad the condition of the program was when Dooley arrived and why.

UT's 2007 recruiting class was almost a complete bust. The 2008 class was the worst of Fulmer's career and attrited some of its best players before '10. The 2009 class started by Fulmer with a salvage attempt by Kiffin was also a near complete bust. Players from these three clases should have made up the core of UT's '10 and '11 rosters. Instead, those rosters depended on a critically high number of Fr/So.

Add to that the complete lack of discipline under Fulmer. Do you remember?

Much of what had to be done needed an "administrator". Many of the problems were systemic. Not all good administrators are good coaches. But many good or even great coaches are weak administrators who need staff support.

It was literally impossible for the roster to get worse. We could have hired Joker Phillips and the roster would have improved. It's not hard to pull a top-20 class at a place with top-5 facilities and the biggest recruiting budget in the nation. That's the absolute worst we can expect.

And please don't act like Dooley rebuilt Louisiana Tech. His record there wasn't any better than Gary Crowton, who couldn't even make it as an SEC coordinator. Their resurgence now is due to them hiring a substantially better coach than Dooley.

The only "accomplishment" contained in that post is essentially that Dooley managed to provide "stability" by giving us the same coach for three years. And even that is something he barely managed, mainly because he was so incompetent at everything else.

 

[NashVol11]

Add to that the complete lack of discipline under Fulmer. Do you remember?

You think we had discipline with Dooley?

Hahahahaha

 

[keithpowers]

You think we had discipline with Dooley?

Hahahahaha

No, but we DID have a lawyer there to exploit the loopholes. LOL.

 

[volunteer2]

This thread is totally absurd and should be deleted. CBJ and his staff are doing a remarkable job and they have given the VOLNATION something to be proud of again. Brick by brick coach, Thanks!!!! (Rise to the top)

 

[mwellham]

No way we go 4-8! More like 6-6 or 7-5!

 

[sjt18]

It was literally impossible for the roster to get worse. We could have hired Joker Phillips and the roster would have improved. It's not hard to pull a top-20 class at a place with top-5 facilities and the biggest recruiting budget in the nation. That's the absolute worst we can expect.

Umm, no except that someone considered to be one of the best recruiters of his time had finished 35th in 2008 with those same facilities coming off an appearance in the SEC Championship Game.

His record there wasn't any better than Gary Crowton, who couldn't even make it as an SEC coordinator. Their resurgence now is due to them hiring a substantially better coach than Dooley.

That's pretty much what I said there smart guy. If you were as smart as you think you are you might learn reading comprehension.

Dooley DID recruit the players that the current coach has been successful with to this point. He did by EVERY ACCOUNT improve the programs operations and facilities. He managed both programs well as HC but he CANNOT coach. He laid a foundation but could not build on it. That took and will take a "substantially better coach".

The only "accomplishment" contained in that post is essentially that Dooley managed to provide "stability" by giving us the same coach for three years. And even that is something he barely managed, mainly because he was so incompetent at everything else.

No. He was not incompetent at "everything else". He could not coach. He made some pretty bad hires on his second shot at hiring a staff too.

He DID recruit some VERY good players. He avg'd about the same number of "stars" according to Rivals as Fulmer did... right around 3.4. He did that without ever proving he could coach. He did a good job recruiting if not very good considering what he had to sell over. The Vols do not have constant police calls now. Losses due to drugs are fewer.

He can manage a program... He simply cannot coach a team.

 

[sjt18]

You think we had discipline with Dooley?

Hahahahaha

Wait, you are suggesting that an outsider like Dooley could better cover up legal problems and drug problems than Fulmer? Really?

Yes. What you saw with Dooley was a relatively "normal" level of off the field issues. You did not have weekly Vols on the blotter like it had become with Fulmer. Kiffin actually started getting that straight.

 

[NashVol11]

Wait, you are suggesting that an outsider like Dooley could better cover up legal problems and drug problems than Fulmer? Really?

Yes. What you saw with Dooley was a relatively "normal" level of off the field issues. You did not have weekly Vols on the blotter like it had become with Fulmer. Kiffin actually started getting that straight.

Would you say that a collective 2.08 GPA is indicative of a disciplined team?

 

[hmanvolfan]

Don't let the Dooley haters ruin your day or time. Some are so dead set on the hating, they MUST hunt down every crumb of excuse to spout more venom at the guy instead of letting the fact he's gone be the end of it. They must endlessly recite reasons for the hate or nitpick to find some. And ignore any of the positive things Dooley did. I think no one questions his game coaching skills are in doubt given what we saw in 3 years. But the haters can't admit he also got the VFL thing meaningful. That he mainly ended he repetitive thuggish reputation of UT players compared to the past. That he held the recruiting together after the mess that Kiffin left. And generally, reduced our being an SEC laughingstock and even hated which we were in large part due to Kiffin's conduct. I'm not in love with DD but I don't have the spite toward him that one too many here do. Especially those who can't figure out the man is gone, won't be back and we have a very positive future to look forward to with a coach that thusfar seems to know what he's doing. Given the sheer negativism that even to this day surrounds the program, it's a freaking miracle we got a coach of Jones' quality, character, dedication, and background. Instead of having to settle for very possibly a FCS, division IV, or high school coach. So why the heck these people waste time continuing to vomit out Dooley hate is a mystery that should be scheduled on the Paranormal State TV program.

 

[NashVol11]

Umm, no except that someone considered to be one of the best recruiters of his time had finished 35th in 2008 with those same facilities coming off an appearance in the SEC Championship Game.

Someone who got fired. You're not helping your case.

That's pretty much what I said there smart guy. If you were as smart as you think you are you might learn reading comprehension.

Dooley DID recruit the players that the current coach has been successful with to this point. He did by EVERY ACCOUNT improve the programs operations and facilities. He managed both programs well as HC but he CANNOT coach. He laid a foundation but could not build on it. That took and will take a "substantially better coach".

Don't act like we said the same thing. Louisiana Tech had better teams before Dooley and they're better immediately after he left. The fact that he got their stadium renovated or some s**t does not at all mean that he laid some kind of "necessary foundation" for their success now.

No. He was not incompetent at "everything else". He could not coach. He made some pretty bad hires on his second shot at hiring a staff too.

He did a good job recruiting if not very good considering what he had to sell over. The Vols do not have constant police calls now. Losses due to drugs are fewer.

He can manage a program... He simply cannot coach a team.

Off the field, he had three responsibilities.

1. Recruiting: He made dozens of coaches and players across the state hate his guts, rarely returned calls, came off as an arrogant POS and forgot which recruits were even visiting our campus.

2. Academics: we're about to be ineligible for the postseason because of his incompetent ass. No one went to class.

3. Team chemistry: LOL

You tell me where he succeeded.

 

[hmanvolfan]

You tell me where he succeeded.

Orange dog and shower techniques.

 

[Vol4life25]

Fulmer didn't just go 5-7. He had stopped competing with the top SEC programs on the field and in recruiting. He was annually getting blown out by the top teams in the SEC... not just beaten... completely and totally outclassed FAR beyond any difference in talent. Though any difference in talent was also Fulmer's responsibility. The players he did get weren't being effectively developed. It was routinely stated that players coming out of UT into the NFL were not "coached up".

Remember this. Kiffin took the scraps left by Fulmer and made both the UF and Bama games competitive. He was forced to start a QB that was a head case and two 265 lb walk ons on the OL. Kiffin for all of his flaws was a MUCH better gameday coach than Fulmer.

Fulmer had lost control of his team off the field as well. UT filled the police blotters with football players getting into trouble. That DIRECTLY indicates a disrespect for Fulmer. Kiffin and Dooley spent a lot of time cleaning that mess up. Kiffin took a hard line and ran off some good players as well as bad ones in order to purge the deeply rooted problems. (BTW, I resent you making me say nice things about Kiffin).

And to repeat, he was no longer getting elite recruits. He was getting some guys who could stay in school and eligible. Then he was getting talented guys with all kinds of problems that other schools chose not to deal with like Morley and Vinson. Both elite athletes... that couldn't stay eligible.

Parents and recruits saw what was happening at UT and avoided the Vols.

"Every Rival fan" doesn't do that. I have yet to encounter a single rival fan that does that. They DID mock UT over the constant off the field problems under Fulmer. And even if they did what you say... why should we pay attention to people who actually benefit from UT being down? They also didn't pay nearly as much attention to what was happening as we do.



You either can't or won't remember the problems with the program under Fulmer then want to imply someone else can't see clearly?

I don't have "orange glasses" on here. Simple... straight forward... rational:

Fulmer deserved to be fired. He failed and was going down hill. Things were NOT improving. He had not been able to recruit elite linemen in sufficient numbers for several years before being fired.

Kiffin was a lot of glitter and considered a good hire by many. He culled some players to restore discipline. He finished Fulmer's mess of a class as best he could... which wasn't well. He then recruited some pretty good players before leaving. He had no loyalty or class and left UT in a bad situation.

The best candidates for the job after CLK passed because they recognized how bad the roster was going to be for the next two seasons. UT took a swing with a guy who never would have been considered under better circumstances. The reasons he got the job were probably his pedigree and recruiting connections. Saban recommended him. He was considered an up-and-comer by many. He failed and was fired.


Just because the two subsequent hires did not work out does NOT mean that firing Fulmer was the wrong answer. Because of the direction of the program and his refusal to change, it was absolutely the right decision. I was one of the last to defend the idea that Fulmer should get a chance after the 2005 and 2008 debacles to turn the ship around. But when he was finally let go... it was definitely time.

I didnt read that, but I'm sure it was the same ole crap. 'He starting losing his touch." "Lost control of his team." Blah blah

All I got to say is,

1 NC
2 SEC Titles
7 East titles (I think)
152-52
HOF head coach

#IWin

 

[butchna]

I didnt read that, but I'm sure it was the same ole crap. 'He starting losing his touch." "Lost control of his team." Blah blah

All I got to say is,

1 NC
2 SEC Titles
7 East titles (I think)
152-52
HOF head coach

#IWin

1 Got lazy and smug
2 Became Spurrier's beyatch
3 Became Richt's beyatch
4 Started the process of becoming both Urban and Saban's beyatch
5 Became so lazy and smug, he might as well had melded to a toilet
6 Stopped caring about recruiting
7 Became Wyoming's beyatch

#noonewins
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Vol4life25]

1 Got lazy and smug
2 Became Spurrier's beyatch
3 Became Richt's beyatch
4 Started the process of becoming both Urban and Saban's beyatch
5 Became so lazy and smug, he might as well had melded to a toilet
6 Stopped caring about recruiting
7 Became Wyoming's beyatch

#noonewins
Posted via VolNation Mobile

I didnt number them lol