Immigration Bill

#51
#51
Fox's political future probably hinges on what our Immigration Bill ends up looking like.
 
#52
#52
I say build the wall, put guards on it, get the National Guard involved, deport all illegal immigrants back to Mexico, especially those currently in the penal system who you and I are paying for and tighten our borders.
 
#53
#53
(Volunteer @ Mar 29 said:
I say build the wall, put guards on it, get the National Guard involved, deport all illegal immigrants back to Mexico, especially those currently in the penal system who you and I are paying for and tighten our borders.
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I'm with you right there. Right now we have water stands set up in the middle of nowhere to make sure they don't die of thirst on their way over..
 
#54
#54
(Orangewhiteblood @ Mar 30 said:
I'm with you right there. Right now we have water stands set up in the middle of nowhere to make sure they don't die of thirst on their way over..
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here, here.....

 
#55
#55
(Crakaveli @ Mar 28 said:
We already know that illegal immigrants have contempt for this country and ours laws but seriously, what the hell happened? All weekend I heard that they "just want to come here and be Americans and contribute." I heard them say that "we are the backbone of this country." Yet between the costs of their medical care, policing, and educating their children with the added billions of dollars to teach them in Spanish and not English which they refuse to learn. It's my sense that they are not the backbone of America, but they are breaking our back.

I'm told that without them I would be paying $6.00 for a head of lettuce, or $15.00 for a plate of spaghetti when I go out to eat. I supposed to think that's far worse than the billions and billions of dollars we are shelling out for the above mentioned Government services. Actually, when you sit and do the math we'd be far better off paying more for our produce, dinning out, lawn maintenance, etc. That is considerably less than we pay to keep illegal immigrants here.

With all of that said, President Bush says we need them because "they do jobs Americans won't do." This is true and it's our fault for allowing any American to decide that he or she is "too good" to take whatever jobs are available, and turn to tax payers to pay their way. Shame on the welfare state, and shame on this country for allowing it to come to this. If we are to fix the problem of illegal immigration we must first fix welfare once and for all. No one should be able to pass up a job, any job in favor of a Government check.

During the Great Depression there was no such thing as a job that an American wouldn't do. Shock of shocks, there was no illegal immigration problem either. In fact Americans in those days had the same attitude about work that immigrants (illegal or otherwise) have today. The liberal welfare program has made a mess of this country and now they defend not only the right of some Americans to sit on their asses and not work, but defend the right of foreigners to break our laws to come here and take jobs that these same lazy ass Americans won't do.

What the hell?
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this is an excellent way of looking at this issue. My first reaction to this issue is i'm sick of having to choose Spanish or English on ATM's, phone calls, computers, and just about everything else....

Which usually leads me to the flip side....when was the last time i saw a middle aged white man working on a landscaping crew? or house painter? roofer? (i know there are folks....but...) etc....? Not too often....i just had a house built, and besides the project manager, NO ONE else i came in to contact with was an English speaking white or black male. It was all Mexicans, that only speak Spanish, or so they say.

For my Job, we hire Temp services alll over the country(for guess what? the work that we don't want to do...shocker!), in certain pockets, most of the Temps these services provide are Mexican. Again, usually out of the entire crew, there is only one who supposedly speaks English.


So, the flip side for me is very real.....Americans aren't doing these low level manual labor jobs anymore. More and More Americans are going to and graduating college (or are getting vocational training in specific industries) and are moving in to the white collar world. Most of the blue collar jobs(at least low level, low skill anyway) are not attractive to even those Americans that did not go to college and graduate (truck drivrs, equipment operators etc,etc, etc....) and with most of the good paying manufacturing jobs dwindling, the economy is shifting towards more of a service oriented one rather than the manufacturing one we enjoyed way back when.

Why? the middle class American is more upwardly mobile today than he probaby has ever been. Problem is, there are only so many "up" jobs.

Like my grand dad used to tell me...the world needs ditch diggers to son. To a certain extent, our "ditch diggers" for lack of a better term, are these illegal immigrants. it is true when they say we wont' do those jobs.

It is also true that if we did, costs of a lot of things would go up.

but Crak, you bring up a very, very good point about the Welfare system and the overall cost of "taking care" of the illegal immigrants.

Problem is, what do we realistically do about it?

Good Post Crack.
 
#56
#56
Propose that The United States build a 100 yard wide wall across our Southern Border?

What do you we about the coastline of Texas and California?
 
#57
#57
(rwemyss @ Mar 29 said:
Are the ones you know legal American Citizens? I bet they are... not ALL of them break the law to get here, just a large number.
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Very legal.
 
#58
#58
I agree if you break the law, you should be punished, and the ones in prison should be sent back .Remember the Jimmy Carter debacle in which all Cuban undesirables in their society were welcomed with open arms. I talked to a guy who was in prison over there and came over on a boat.Castro let them out to come here.Devi's advocate,if your famly is starving,would you do the same flee Mexico?It is a huge problem, no doubt, but isn't it true that we let them enlist in our military or not or do they become citizens if they enlist?Two things stand out in my mind, cultural diversity and narrow mindedness. Not all Mexicans are breaking the law.
 
#59
#59
(OrangeEmpire @ Mar 30 said:
Propose that The United States build a 100 yard wide wall across our Southern Border?

What do you we about the coastline of Texas and California?
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Minefield? :biggrin2:
 
#60
#60
The Southern border of the US a DMZ?

I will throw out the true conspiracy!

Mexico wants their land back and they are going to use the peasants to do it!
 
#61
#61
i live in sheblyville and it is absolutely infested w/ illegal mexicans, every sign in this town is written in eng and spanish and everywhere u look some mexican has caused a wreck and doesnt have a license. there are now more mexicans than african americans in my town and its kinda strange. a major company called "tyson" caused it all. they hired tons of illegal mexicans throughout the years. i have been told that there are signs in mexico that persuade mexican citizens to come work at Tysons. shelbyville is littered w/ mexican flags everywhere and i cant stand it... i completely agree w/ vols2345 and we should vaporize all of them!
 
#62
#62
(jakez4ut @ Mar 30 said:
Which usually leads me to the flip side....when was the last time i saw a middle aged white man working on a landscaping crew? or house painter? roofer? (i know there are folks....but...) etc....? Not too often....i just had a house built, and besides the project manager, NO ONE else i came in to contact with was an English speaking white or black male. It was all Mexicans, that only speak Spanish, or so they say.

For my Job, we hire Temp services alll over the country(for guess what? the work that we don't want to do...shocker!), in certain pockets, most of the Temps these services provide are Mexican. Again, usually out of the entire crew, there is only one who supposedly speaks English.
So, the flip side for me is very real.....Americans aren't doing these low level manual labor jobs anymore. More and More Americans are going to and graduating college (or are getting vocational training in specific industries) and are moving in to the white collar world. Most of the blue collar jobs(at least low level, low skill anyway) are not attractive to even those Americans that did not go to college and graduate (truck drivrs, equipment operators etc,etc, etc....) and with most of the good paying manufacturing jobs dwindling, the economy is shifting towards more of a service oriented one rather than the manufacturing one we enjoyed way back when.

Why? the middle class American is more upwardly mobile today than he probaby has ever been. Problem is, there are only so many "up" jobs.

Like my grand dad used to tell me...the world needs ditch diggers to son. To a certain extent, our "ditch diggers" for lack of a better term, are these illegal immigrants. it is true when they say we wont' do those jobs.
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It's not that Americans won't do those jobs, it's that Americans won't do those jobs for the pennies they are paying these illegals. I'm sorry, I just don't buy the "we'd pay more if they weren't doing these jobs" argument. We didn't pay more before we had these immigration problems and Americans were doing those jobs. Has anybody gone down on prices as a result of paying lower wages to illegal aliens? Of course not. It just means higher profits going into somebody's pocket.
 
#63
#63
I for one think this thread should be killed. A little out of hand if you ask me.
 
#64
#64
You can't cut a race of people down in the real world, that is if you work and your not a hermit. I know a guy who was an ignorant racist until the people he was racist against, one of them did heart surgery on him. Not only opened him up for heart surgery but opened his ignorant mind up as well.
 
#65
#65
(Volunteer @ Mar 28 said:
Here is a #$%^ rapper's quote from yesterday:

Jorge Ruiz: "We construct your schools. We cook your food. We are the motor of this nation, but people don't see us. Blacks and whites, they had their revolution. They had their Martin Luther King. Now it is time for us."

They want a REVOLUTION? How does this not bother the rest of the country?

Realize that most people have never been to Mexico proper, I'm not talking about americanized Cancun or Acapulco. I majored in Spanish at The University of Tennessee and spent 6 weeks in the city of Puebla. The outright hatred for the United States by Mexicans is common, rewind to the U.S.-Mexico Soccer Match a couple of years ago when the Mexican soccer fans were shouting "OSAMA".

If our borders are opened when does the next 9/11 happen?
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I usually find myself more enlightened after reading most of your posts, however, I am going to have to correct your reference to any security issue here. The fact is, is that this whole issue is completely political. Is there a security threat to leaving our southern border as open as it is right now, yes; a very small one. However, considering that 2 of the 9/11 highjackers and 1 of the operatives of the early 90s WTC attack all entered the US from across our northern border, I would have to state firmly that tightening security on our northern border should take priority.

You also stated that most Mexican immigrants send their money back to Mexico...true. Most corporations also try to keep all the revenues that gain outside the US, offshore. The reason why Mexican labor is good for the economy is:
In states like California, where the state minimum wage is around or over $8/hr, undocumented workers do the labor for almost half the pay. This leads to lower merchandise costs and more money left for Americans to spend. The same thing happens in West Texas, where Mexican cowboys are hired on at feedlots as help, the result, Americans across the nation are paying less for beef. Federally, the work illegals do is a great benefit. Locally, it kills city governments in areas where there are high concentrations of illegals, because they are parasites on local health care, school systems, etc. This is why GWBs idea of allowing them to continue to work here, without granting clemency, is a good thing. As long as they are recognized by some sort of official document and employers are able to pay less than minimum wages, then their wages are taxed. Therefore, federally we get the benefits and locally, they don't drain the economies.

The real reason why so many people are out to get rid of these workers though, is to open up jobs for the America worker, and at $8/hr plus possible union representation, it gets scary.
 
#67
#67
I am glad you are enlightened therealUT, I guess the security issue is not necessarily that terrorists HAVE crossed the border as much as the possibility exists. If you travel to Mexico, you may very well be searched before you come back to the U.S. Why do we hold different standards for those who enter the U.S. illegally????

Read this from a column "Guests or gate-crashers" by Thomas Sowell


"How often have we heard that illegal immigrants "take jobs that Americans will not do"? What is missing in this argument is what is crucial in any economic argument: price.

Americans will not take many jobs at their current pay levels -- and those pay levels will not rise so long as poverty-stricken immigrants are willing to take those jobs.

If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about "taking jobs that Americans don't want" is such nonsense.

Another variation on the same theme is that we "need" the millions of illegal aliens already in the United States. "Need" is another word that blithely ignores prices.

If jet planes were on sale for a thousand dollars each, I would probably "need" a couple of them -- an extra one to fly when the first one needed repair or maintenance. But since these planes cost millions of dollars, I don't even "need" one.

There is no fixed amount of "need," independently of prices, whether with planes or workers."


 
#68
#68
(utfantilidie @ Mar 30 said:
You can't cut a race of people down in the real world, that is if you work and your not a hermit. I know a guy who was an ignorant racist until the people he was racist against, one of them did heart surgery on him. Not only opened him up for heart surgery but opened his ignorant mind up as well.
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This is not a RACE issue. Mexican is not a race, it is a NATIONALITY... and there are large numbers of MEXICAN NATIONALS living in AMERICA, you know... where AMERICAN NATIONALS are supposed to live... you're smart enough to figure out where Mexican nationals belong.
 
#69
#69
(Volunteer @ Mar 30 said:
I am glad you are enlightened therealUT, I guess the security issue is not necessarily that terrorists HAVE crossed the border as much as the possibility exists. If you travel to Mexico, you may very well be searched before you come back to the U.S. Why do we hold different standards for those who enter the U.S. illegally????

Read this from a column "Guests or gate-crashers" by Thomas Sowell
"How often have we heard that illegal immigrants "take jobs that Americans will not do"? What is missing in this argument is what is crucial in any economic argument: price.

Americans will not take many jobs at their current pay levels -- and those pay levels will not rise so long as poverty-stricken immigrants are willing to take those jobs.

If Mexican journalists were flooding into the United States and taking jobs as reporters and editors at half the pay being earned by American reporters and editors, maybe people in the media would understand why the argument about "taking jobs that Americans don't want" is such nonsense.

Another variation on the same theme is that we "need" the millions of illegal aliens already in the United States. "Need" is another word that blithely ignores prices.

If jet planes were on sale for a thousand dollars each, I would probably "need" a couple of them -- an extra one to fly when the first one needed repair or maintenance. But since these planes cost millions of dollars, I don't even "need" one.

There is no fixed amount of "need," independently of prices, whether with planes or workers."
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Well, if you really want to fix the problem, then lobby at both the state and federal levels to get rid of minimum pay standards and revert back to a free market capitalistic society.

Labor unions and advocates for the so called underprivileged in this country have worked so hard for 'living wages,' in which the people living in "poverty" in the US have at least a car, a tv, a cell phone, etc. Those are luxuries that one shouldn't be automatically entitled to. Until this common sense approach is accepted by America as a whole and our government officials, then we are going to continue to see businesses cutting corners, bending the rules, and finding cheaper labor, either within our borders or outside of them.
 
#70
#70
(rwemyss @ Mar 30 said:
This is not a RACE issue. Mexican is not a race, it is a NATIONALITY... and there are large numbers of MEXICAN NATIONALS living in AMERICA, you know... where AMERICAN NATIONALS are supposed to live... you're smart enough to figure out where Mexican nationals belong.
Click to expand...

Right...

So many people either forgot or are just so arrogant that they fail to see that being born in America is a blessing. In no way did you do anything to earn your American citizenship, then you have the nerve to attack a group of people who are willing to sacrifice living with their families for 6-9 months to go work long hours in the sun, earning next to nothing, as migrant workers. It is absolutely ridiculous.

The fact is that many of these "MEXICAN NATIONALS" have children in the US who grow up to be American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines, once again doing more than what the normal American does to earn his place in America.

Also, somebody spoke about too many Mexican flags or signs that are in both English and Spanish. Well boo-hoo! These signs are most likely put up privately by local business people and is not much different than going to Vienna, Berlin, Rome, the Caribbean, and other hot tourist spots in which there are many signs in English, to attract business from American tourists.

So, in your own head you might truly believe you are not racist, but that is probably because there is a lot of arrogance keeping you from actually taking a realistic look at yourself.
 
#71
#71
Pro:

Illegal immigrants contribute to the economy in the same way as the rest of us, through work: i.e. by contributing value to some product or service, which can then be sold locally or exported. In this way, they contribute to the U.S. GNP, the total size of the economy.
Okay, but how do the rest of us benefit?

When someone works, they add value to products or services, assembling a car, developing software, serving burgers, booking travel, whatever. But the key is that people are not paid as much as the value they add. The surplus is profit for the business. If this surplus didn't exist, the business wouldn't be profitable.

What happens to this surplus? If the business is a widely held public company, it gets distributed to the rest of us, through taxes, dividends, and reinvestment.

Instead, we trade the value of our work for a dependable salary. We can share in the profits and growth of the company by owning stock in the company.

It's the same story in any occupation. People working at McDonald's are paid $5 an hour; how many meals do they serve to people in that hour? How much is that worth? It'd better be more than they're being paid; otherwise, the business will fail. Same for assembling cars: the price of the car is much more than the cost of the parts plus the cost of assembling it.

To sum up: in a successful business, each employee contributes more to the company than they're paid; this can be measured by the company's profits. These profits benefit the rest of us, either through taxation or through the ownership of the business. (Assuming the business is a public company with widespread ownership.)

That's what it means for people to be contributing to the economy. If they're doing a good job, if they're adding a lot of value, then they benefit the rest of us. It doesn't matter if they're immigrants or not.

Con:

Varied polls indicate that over 75% of America's legal citizens want more done to control illegal immigration, yet the elected officials who are willing to address this concern constitute a minority of members in the US Congress and Senate at this time.

Even more alarming is the disparity between our current laws and what is actually happening in the country. Illegal immigration is exactly as the title implies; it's illegal. If three fourths of America's legal citizens want illegal immigration curtailed and laws are in place to facilitate their wishes through a constitutional democracy, then why is America experiencing the largest population increase through illegal immigration in our history?

Our state and federal budgets are being overwhelmed. Schools, hospitals, law enforcement, and public services are being strained while the taxpayers incur more costs and more debt. Our nation's very survival and identity are being threatened along with our national security.
 
#73
#73
I think you fail to see that I am making arguments for both sides. Not necessarily my own personal opinion of the matter.

P.S. Please go to the political discussion topic, I am curious to read your viewpoints on a few matters.

:biggrin2:
 
#74
#74
my only beef is that you are trying to find positives on this and there isn't unless your rich. the rich corps are the only one's who benefit from all this immigration mess which is why W supports it. they come over and get free hospitalization which we pay for, but we send our own americans out to the corner of the street. they get all the welfare benefits they can and poor americans starve. all because these poor illegals are getting paid 2.50 an hour to build houses and do job nobody in there right mind would do for that wage. and when the voters try and do something about it an idiot like McCain tries to have prop 200 taken of the ballot because he says it is unconsitutional. what a joke. i lived in phoenix for over a year and there is a good chance i will be transfered back out there in the summer this year. it is a sad situation that the president is just making a whole lot worse.
 
#75
#75
lou dobb's on cnn has a great article on how the president and congress are defying the american people and what they want on this issue.
 
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