Immigration Bill

#76
#76
(therealUT @ Mar 31 said:
Right...

So many people either forgot or are just so arrogant that they fail to see that being born in America is a blessing. In no way did you do anything to earn your American citizenship, then you have the nerve to attack a group of people who are willing to sacrifice living with their families for 6-9 months to go work long hours in the sun, earning next to nothing, as migrant workers. It is absolutely ridiculous.

The fact is that many of these "MEXICAN NATIONALS" have children in the US who grow up to be American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines, once again doing more than what the normal American does to earn his place in America.

Also, somebody spoke about too many Mexican flags or signs that are in both English and Spanish. Well boo-hoo! These signs are most likely put up privately by local business people and is not much different than going to Vienna, Berlin, Rome, the Caribbean, and other hot tourist spots in which there are many signs in English, to attract business from American tourists.

So, in your own head you might truly believe you are not racist, but that is probably because there is a lot of arrogance keeping you from actually taking a realistic look at yourself.
Thanks for calling me a racist, I really appreciate that... I've lost any figment of respect I had for you in this debate. I've noticed that the first ones to call "bigot!" or "racist!" are usually just that themselves.

The point is, there are LEGAL ways to immigrate from another country to the US. It is a very difficult process, and I understand that... there is a REASON it is so difficult. The ones that don't go through that process are CRIMINALS the second they cross that border, plain and simple. Is it fair? Not necessarily, but life isn't fair. If I chose to operate my motor vehicle without wearing a seatbelt, that is a crime for some reason. It isn't fair, I'm not harming anyone else, but it is still the law.

 
#77
#77
Well, it's starting to get a little tense out here. Link to story

Immigration tensions spark flag-burning in A.J.
By Blake Herzog, Tribune
March 31, 2006
This week’s tensions over immigration reform literally caught fire in the East Valley on Thursday when students raised a Mexican flag over Apache Junction High School — and then other students yanked it down and burned it.

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“I know (they) shouldn’t have burned the Mexican flag,” said Jacob Stewart, a 16-year-old sophomore. “I heard it was raised above the American flag and that just irked me.”

He said the turbulence was tied to the newsmaking debates in the state Legislature and in Congress, where ideas from offering illegal immigrants a chance at citizenship to making them felons are being considered.

Freshman Chelsea Garcia, 15, and junior Brittany Ramage, 16, said the unrest had more to do with longrunning racial tensions at the school.

“(This week’s events) might have sparked a little more anger,” Ramage said. “But kids are not very deep about that stuff.”

The Hispanic student who brought the Mexican flag said he was responding to a racist remark directed at him Wednesday. The flagraising, flag-burning and shoving match that followed happened before most students arrived at school.

Six students — three Hispanic and three white — will be disciplined, principal Chad Wilson said.

Officials with the Apache Junction Unified School District would not specify what kind of punishment the six students face.

Wilson said in a letter sent home to parents that there would be “increased supervision, including additional police officers, on the campus over the next couple of days.”

District spokeswoman Carol Shepherd said the additional security was being brought in as a precaution.

“It’s one of those situations where if you didn’t have additional security and something did happen, we’d be challenged by parents about why we didn’t do anything,” she said.

Wilson said the increased security would include four off-duty police officers the district hired as security guards, along with its regular school resource officer.

By early afternoon Thursday, district officials said the environment on campus had sufficiently calmed down to continue preparing students to take Arizona’s Instrument to Measure Standards test next week.

“It’s much more conducive to quality learning today than it could have been,” Superintendent Gregory Wyman said.

Shepherd said parents were calling the district office about false rumors their children had brought home: “That the American flag had been burned — not true. That this had happened four or five times before — not true.”

The confrontation happened at the flagpole in front of the school’s Navy ROTC building, but Maj. Bill Parker, one of the organization’s advisers, said he did not know whether any of his students were involved.

He said ROTC provides diversity training to all its students, and about 20 percent of his NJROTC students are Hispanic.

About 17 percent of the overall student body is Latino, according to the district.

Wilson said he e-mailed teachers separately Thursday about the incident, but left it up to them to decide if and how they should address the issue in their classrooms.

He emphasized that six out of the school’s 1,618 students were involved in the flag fight, and many students might not have the same problems dealing with the racially charged immigration debate.

School flagpoles have been lightning rods across the country this week, including an incident in which a Houston high school principal was disciplined after he flew a Mexican flag underneath his campus’ U.S. and state flags.

A new political awareness among high school students has also been grabbing attention, as thousands of teenagers have walked out ofclasses to join rallies nationwide.

More than 100 students from Mesa’s Carson Junior High and Westwood High schools marched in protest on Mesa streets Tuesday.

Organizers of last Friday’s protest that drew 20,000 people of all ages and shut down miles of 24th Street in Phoenix are gearing up for another one on April 10.

During a news conference Wednesday, they begged high school students not to join in until after school lets out.

Former Mesa resident Mercedes Mercado-Ochoa, who attended the conference as a member of Unidos in Arizona, said many of the students are part of struggling families and may be the American-born children of illegal immigrants.

She said the way to get kids to protest responsibly is to provide them with positive role models, rather than encourage bad choices such as those made on both sides of the Apache Junction dispute.

“We need to be educating them on what César Chávez was all about — he wasn’t a boxer,” she said.

“And about Martin Luther King — what he wanted for the people.”
 
#78
#78
Oh wow. These kids are all pushing the boundaries a little far... a Mexican flag should not be raised at an American HS, especially if that quote from that one boy is true about it being raised ABOVE the American flag...

But there was no reason to burn that Mexican flag after taking it down.

Wow.
 
#81
#81
(rwemyss @ Mar 30 said:
This is not a RACE issue. Mexican is not a race, it is a NATIONALITY... and there are large numbers of MEXICAN NATIONALS living in AMERICA, you know... where AMERICAN NATIONALS are supposed to live... you're smart enough to figure out where Mexican nationals belong.




Wrong again.Yes you Mr. Know it all.
 
#82
#82
Ahhh I see... Mexican is a race... So I guess American is a race too... hmmmm...
 
#83
#83
(rwemyss @ Mar 31 said:
Thanks for calling me a racist, I really appreciate that... I've lost any figment of respect I had for you in this debate. I've noticed that the first ones to call "bigot!" or "racist!" are usually just that themselves.

The point is, there are LEGAL ways to immigrate from another country to the US. It is a very difficult process, and I understand that... there is a REASON it is so difficult. The ones that don't go through that process are CRIMINALS the second they cross that border, plain and simple. Is it fair? Not necessarily, but life isn't fair. If I chose to operate my motor vehicle without wearing a seatbelt, that is a crime for some reason. It isn't fair, I'm not harming anyone else, but it is still the law.

I really don't care if you have any respect for me. I suppose your ancestors came to America legally??? Mine didn't, they were Irish. Most Italian Americans didn't, that is where the term WOP came from, meaning With Out Papers. A lot of Germans came over as Hessian soldiers, something that is not all that legal or ethical. Oh, and the Scots Irish settled in Appalachia after largely coming here illegally, and then being turned away from most every society on the eastern shoreboard.

Most all immigrants coming to America pre-1970s, came illegally. There is a reason the Statue of Liberty has the inscription "Bring us your tired, your poor," etc. It doesn't say, bring us those that have the money, time, and contacts to spend years working through the Beaurocratic mess that has been set up to protect American Labor.
 
#84
#84
last i heard the statue of liberty didn't say let all immigrants come over so tax payers can pay for there every need, and so they can ruin your country economically.
 
#85
#85
(therealUT @ Apr 1 said:
I really don't care if you have any respect for me. I suppose your ancestors came to America legally??? Mine didn't, they were Irish. Most Italian Americans didn't, that is where the term WOP came from, meaning With Out Papers. A lot of Germans came over as Hessian soldiers, something that is not all that legal or ethical. Oh, and the Scots Irish settled in Appalachia after largely coming here illegally, and then being turned away from most every society on the eastern shoreboard.

Most all immigrants coming to America pre-1970s, came illegally. There is a reason the Statue of Liberty has the inscription "Bring us your tired, your poor," etc. It doesn't say, bring us those that have the money, time, and contacts to spend years working through the Beaurocratic mess that has been set up to protect American Labor.
My ancestry is Scottish. The man got here as a Redcoat, and was injured in the Carolinas, and settled there. There was no immigration law at the time, so it was perfectly legal. Same with the Hessians you mentioned... there was no law. Now there is. Follow it.

Oh, and just to be clear, you're pro-illegal immigration, but anti-homosexual adoption?!?! I'd call you a bigot, but you've already pointed that finger my way.
 
#86
#86
(smokedog#3 @ Apr 1 said:
last i heard the statue of liberty didn't say let all immigrants come over so tax payers can pay for there every need, and so they can ruin your country economically.

Last I heard, their, there, and they're are homophones, and taxpayers is one word.

Also, immigrant work in no way harms our economy. Why is our economy hurting right now? Legacy systems that can't be replaced in highly unionized industries. Ford Motor Company is offering to pay four year tuitions that any of their UAW employees are admitted to, as long as the laborers who take Ford up on the suggestion revoke their UAW membership and swear to FMC that they will not return seeking employment.

There are thousands of examples akin to this one showing up all over American Labor, also known as the most inefficient labor force in the world.

However, immigrant workers have proven that they're efficient, affordable, and dependable to more than just the agriculture community.

Maybe, if our own labor force did not feel entitled to a so called 'living wage' plus benefits, then we immigrants from Mexico would no longer come to the U.S. looking for jobs because there would be little demand for foreign work and an even smaller supply of jobs for them.
 
#87
#87
immigrant work in everyway hurts our economy. one we pay for there hospitalization and welfare when they can't get enough to eat. tell me i'm wrong me and my wife saw this first hand when i lived in phoenix, not to mention you can't leave your car outside at night and you better have a gun under your bed incase of a home invasion. they are doing jobs that nobody in there right mind would do for $3 an hour. they build every house in phoenix, and nobody makes a cent except for the sorry rich corps to begin with. if they want to do some good let them overthrow there own government and start over. if we had a strong enough government to stop this it wouldn't be a problem, but W makes alot of money this way to so pretty much the poor and middle class americans are screwed. the last i heard this was america, not mexico. when you throw a person out on the street to die because they have no insurance, but take care of a illegal because he or she is from mexico is the most retarded thing i have ever heard of. i'll go as far as saying it is treason. illegals are a drain on the economy and safety of every poor or middleclass american, and the sad thing is this government could care less.
 
#88
#88
You can go as far as you want, but it is not treason. Also, if you say that they drain the economy because they do not pay taxes, yet the corporations are getting rich off the cheap labor, then aren't the corporations paying their taxes for them??? Higher net income, higher tax bracket, more taxes paid, hmm, something to think about.

Also, home invasions, car robberies, and other crime are soley exclusive to predominantly hispanic regions? Someone really should let Detroit know that, the sooner the better.
 
#89
#89
in phoenix it is on the news every night that, group of mexicans caught robbing someone, stabbing someone, caught with drugs, racing the cops down I-10 please. as for the big corps our great president gives them tax breaks so no it doesn't even come close to evening out. also they drive down the payrate because they will work any job for peanuts. your debate doesn't hold water. that is the main reason most true americans in phoenix know immigration is the #1 problem facing arizona. it was even in the arizona republic. they drain the economy it is just the facts, and our government refuses to do anything about it.
 
#90
#90
(rwemyss @ Apr 1 said:
Ahhh I see... Mexican is a race... So I guess American is a race too... hmmmm...





I'm just messing with you rwemyss, I just try to get you off your soap box periodically.The reality is our economy is suffering at the least not collecting taxes.
 
#91
#91
(smokedog#3 @ Apr 1 said:
in phoenix it is on the news every night that, group of mexicans caught robbing someone, stabbing someone, caught with drugs, racing the cops down I-10 please. as for the big corps our great president gives them tax breaks so no it doesn't even come close to evening out. also they drive down the payrate because they will work any job for peanuts. your debate doesn't hold water. that is the main reason most true americans in phoenix know immigration is the #1 problem facing arizona. it was even in the arizona republic. they drain the economy it is just the facts, and our government refuses to do anything about it.

Driving down the pay rate (two words) by working any job for peanuts is called free market capitalism. It is the economic system that our government was founded on. Second, most American's that make minimum wage do not pay federal or local income tax. Therefore, immigrant undocumented workers making less than minimum wage under the table actually bring in more revenue to the government for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I could care less about what is reported on your local news every night. News casting is business, therefore the most sensational stories make the broadcasts. That is why you never hear about the hard working immigrants that just saved you $1.50 on every lb. of beef you buy, or $1 on every bunch of fruit you purchase.

Also, Corps is not short for corporations, so please stop belittling Marines everywhere by using it that way. Next, please understand what you are talking about when you try to argue this point. Our great President (with a capital P) does give tax breaks to corporations, so does the state of Arizona to entice companies to bring business to the state. Maybe you should also look into the local tax breaks most of these companies have received over the years to set up shop in Arizona.

Finally, if it is that much of a hassle to live with all of the so called Mexican criminals plaguing Pheonix, then exercise your right to pursue life and liberty elsewhere. Move to detroit and get on here complaining about blacks, but rest assured, we all know you will refer to them not as a race but as AFRICAN NATIONALS or some other term you have somehow twisted to be perceived as less rascist.
 
#92
#92
(utfantilidie @ Apr 1 said:
I'm just messing with you rwemyss, I just try to get you off your soap box periodically.The reality is our economy is suffering at the least not collecting taxes.
Its cool man. Most of use are adults here, and this is a safe place for debate. All you guys can create your own opinion about What is going on in your lives and our country. This fourm is a place where we can all sound off what we think, and gauge reactions. This will either 1) Help you step back and learn more about the issue, and possibly reevaluate your position, or 2) Make you stronger in your convictions, and give you a better understanding of why you feel that way.

The only time this becomes a problem is when we fall into calling each other names and such. Usually at that point I just quit responding... while we haven't truly gotten to that point here, I think I've said all I have to say about it, and my position has not changed.
 
#93
#93
you know the realut you are so offbase it isn't even worth talking to you. i'm raciest, my wife is mexican. even she knows the difference between right and wrong. her grandfather took the proper steps to become a american citizen back in the late 40's. so big deal american capitalism call it what you want we arn't working in a market like it was 200 years ago. that was a pointless remark. so it is called capitalism that makes it right to drive down the economy, why not communism. don't get that one either. by the way most americans that make minimum wage do pay federal and state income tax where did you get that at. how do the illegals bring in more revenue when the major corporations get tax breaks and the american tax payers pay for there hospitalization and welfare. i'd be willing to bet they don't even out. as for the corps insult, i'll just say i apologize for anybody i insulted. since you want to make this ugly that is fine. i don't mind mexicans that come over peacefully go through the proper steps to become a american citizen that is fine more power to them. i'm talking about the 90% that jump the border and come into the U.S illegally alot of them running drugs, guns and whatever else they can do to make a quick buck. your argument still holds no water, i'm not a raciest i'm a concerned american citizen looking out for the well being of my great nation. against people like you trying to destroy what our founders worked so hard to achieve. why not do what the demonstrators were doing yesterday, take down the american flag and hang the mexican flag. last i heard i thought this was america. besides the realut the tax payers are just getting started paying for the illegals. we will have to for there schooling to learn english, pay for a place to live to keep them off the streets, and who knows how many other perks they will bring with them. as for the president comment he is your president not mine. in my opinion he has done more to hurt this country than anybody, and he should be in jail. thats just my opinion on things, most will disagree with me on bush, but most will agree with me on illegal immigration. thanks for the insults by the way it just proves my point on what kind of person you really are.
 
#94
#94
(smokedog#3 @ Apr 2 said:
you know the realut you are so offbase it isn't even worth talking to you. i'm raciest, my wife is mexican. even she knows the difference between right and wrong. her grandfather took the proper steps to become a american citizen back in the late 40's. so big deal american capitalism call it what you want we arn't working in a market like it was 200 years ago. that was a pointless remark. so it is called capitalism that makes it right to drive down the economy, why not communism. don't get that one either. by the way most americans that make minimum wage do pay federal and state income tax where did you get that at. how do the illegals bring in more revenue when the major corporations get tax breaks and the american tax payers pay for there hospitalization and welfare. i'd be willing to bet they don't even out. as for the corps insult, i'll just say i apologize for anybody i insulted. since you want to make this ugly that is fine. i don't mind mexicans that come over peacefully go through the proper steps to become a american citizen that is fine more power to them. i'm talking about the 90% that jump the border and come into the U.S illegally alot of them running drugs, guns and whatever else they can do to make a quick buck. your argument still holds no water, i'm not a raciest i'm a concerned american citizen looking out for the well being of my great nation. against people like you trying to destroy what our founders worked so hard to achieve. why not do what the demonstrators were doing yesterday, take down the american flag and hang the mexican flag. last i heard i thought this was america. besides the realut the tax payers are just getting started paying for the illegals. we will have to for there schooling to learn english, pay for a place to live to keep them off the streets, and who knows how many other perks they will bring with them. as for the president comment he is your president not mine. in my opinion he has done more to hurt this country than anybody, and he should be in jail. thats just my opinion on things, most will disagree with me on bush, but most will agree with me on illegal immigration. thanks for the insults by the way it just proves my point on what kind of person you really are.

First, there is a big difference between capitalism and communism, I suggest you educate yourself.

Next, if a person is head of household and makes $6/hr or less, for 40 hours a week, 50 weeks a year, that is $12,000 annual income. Therefore, when they file their taxes, they receive all federal and local taxes they paid in what we like to call a tax refund.

Finally, I could care less what most of the uneducated in America agree and disagree on. I choose to try to compare how I feel on issues concerning America against how I believe Franklin, Adams, Paine, etc. would feel about these issues.
 
#95
#95
did not know that about people making under $12,000 a year. i was comparing capitalism to communism as in 2 ways to bring down our economy. you brought up capitalism and our founders trying to make a debate the first time. our founders lived 200 years ago please you can't be seriously trying to judge things on that. most of americans are smart and realize illegal immigration is bad, usually the more educated the more they oppose it unless they can make money off of it. i take it your one of the few making money off of it.
 
#96
#96
(smokedog#3 @ Apr 2 said:
i was comparing capitalism to communism as in 2 ways to bring down our economy.

Please elaborate. I didn't follow that.
 
#97
#97
Capitalism is now bringing down our economy???

Also, the Consititution of the United States is one of the most brilliant documents ever written, and yes, our government still has the obligation to consult that 200 year old document when making decisions. That is why all federal officials, including military personnel, swear to defend the Constitution, however, relatively few of them also swear an oath to uphold the laws of the land.

The fact is, that 200 year old document is paramount in America. If you think people are crazy for still consulting that document, coupled with your less than optimistic view of a free market society, then I urge you to not only leave Pheonix, but you should probably find a country in which you actually agree with the founding principles.
 
#98
#98
(therealUT @ Apr 2 said:
Capitalism is now bringing down our economy???

Also, the Consititution of the United States is one of the most brilliant documents ever written, and yes, our government still has the obligation to consult that 200 year old document when making decisions. That is why all federal officials, including military personnel, swear to defend the Constitution, however, relatively few of them also swear an oath to uphold the laws of the land.

The fact is, that 200 year old document is paramount in America. If you think people are crazy for still consulting that document, coupled with your less than optimistic view of a free market society, then I urge you to not only leave Pheonix, but you should probably find a country in which you actually agree with the founding principles.
France? :devilsmoke:
 
#99
#99
the consititution is a mere shambles of itself, presidents change it and alter when ever they choose. take abe suspending articles to get what he wanted in the civil war, take W and his wiretaps. any historian will tell you this, you did take history in school didn't you. or presidents will simply pass a law to get around it. capitalism in the form of illegal aliens are bringing the economy down. times have changed economics have change and government runs things not the states. i don't see your point on this either.
 
(smokedog#3 @ Apr 2 said:
capitalism in the form of illegal aliens are bringing the economy down.

I have no idea what that means. What does capitalism have to do with this? I'm not taking shot at you, just trying to figure out your argument.
 

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