Is a vote for a 3rd party really a vote for a 3rd party?

#76
#76
RespectTradition said:
A vote for Johnson is a vote for Johnson, not Obama.

If you live in a blue state and you vote for Romney even though you know that Obama will win your state, have you really voted for Obama? It is no different if I vote for someone that I know will lose.

At least I am not a coward that is willing to compromise myself out of fear of Obama.
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I'm not a coward.

I just have no faith in the average American to do the right thing to get us out of this mess.

I do have faith in myself that I can stockpile enough by the time I'm 45 to retire and make sure neither I nor my kids ever have to worry.

This comes down to my lack of faith in Americans as a whole anymore. They're just pathetic and lazy.
 
#77
#77
I think this whole argument is essentially getting worked up over nothing; 3rd party votes are essentially meaningless, except in those cases, as I pointed out where you've got a Forbes 400 type who can bankroll their own campaign. The major parties systematically keep third party and independent politicians from achieving nearly any federal office. Somebody has to get funneled through the party ranks, and the only way to do that is to show their respective party the money (read: special interest dollars).
 
#80
#80
milohimself said:
The Dems but the senate majority for 2012 is completely up in the air, and I doubt there will be any new appointments before January.
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agree and the odds are the senate will go slightly righter but even if it does they will not turn down his appointee. they may turn down his crazy ass first option only to set for just plain crazy second option.
 
#81
#81
milohimself said:
I think this whole argument is essentially getting worked up over nothing; 3rd party votes are essentially meaningless, except in those cases, as I pointed out where you've got a Forbes 400 type who can bankroll their own campaign. The major parties systematically keep third party and independent politicians from achieving nearly any federal office. Somebody has to get funneled through the party ranks, and the only way to do that is to show their respective party the money (read: special interest dollars).
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This happens every 4 years. Once it gets close to the presidental election people begin to clamour for a 3rd party. Problem is that the other 3.5 yrs they do nothing. If people want a legit 3rd party, it needs to begin early and on the local level. From the local level it can go to the state then all the way up. Starting at the top doesnt work and has never worked. Look at Europe - while the political systems are different, to be the Prime Minister you must be elected from a district and be in a party. If we wanted a true 3rd party then we need to get a party of elected officials in the city/counties then the state senates/houses, even the governor. You cant grow a plant from the top down. It comes from the ground up.
 
#82
#82
GreveHaller said:
This happens every 4 years. Once it gets close to the presidental election people begin to clamour for a 3rd party. Problem is that the other 3.5 yrs they do nothing. If people want a legit 3rd party, it needs to begin early and on the local level. From the local level it can go to the state then all the way up. Starting at the top doesnt work and has never worked. Look at Europe - while the political systems are different, to be the Prime Minister you must be elected from a district and be in a party. If we wanted a true 3rd party then we need to get a party of elected officials in the city/counties then the state senates/houses, even the governor. You cant grow a plant from the top down. It comes from the ground up.
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There is plenty of local level third party stuff going on. Greens, socialists, libertarians, etc. all have city and muni offices across the country, even a few people in state houses. But they are systematically kept out of elected federal positions, quite purposefully, by the Dems and GOP.
 
#84
#84
NEOCON said:
we are not changing for the better. we are so indebt it's not even plausible at this point.
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And your answer is to ride this thing out and squeeze what little you can out of it before you bounce, as opposed to voting for a candidate that will actually make the tough/unpopular decisions and get us on the right track beyond the little 10 year window you are talking about?
 
#85
#85
NEOCON said:
I'm not a coward.

I just have no faith in the average American to do the right thing to get us out of this mess.

I do have faith in myself that I can stockpile enough by the time I'm 45 to retire and make sure neither I nor my kids ever have to worry.

This comes down to my lack of faith in Americans as a whole anymore. They're just pathetic and lazy.
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You are basically pointing the finger at yourself. You are the average American... trapped in the 2 party matrix. You are getting the govt that you ask for.

A man can measure freedom by looking at the number of options he has. As you start to limit his options, you gradually eat away at his freedoms. This is where we are in this country. We have 2 parties in name only. In truth, they only differ in pace, and not direction (parallel vectors of differing magnitudes).
 
#86
#86
Rasputin_Vol said:
And your answer is to ride this thing out and squeeze what little you can out of it before you bounce, as opposed to voting for a candidate that will actually make the tough/unpopular decisions and get us on the right track beyond the little 10 year window you are talking about?
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I've never been one to make a statement just so I can say I made a statement.

You show me a 3rd party candidate who actually has a chance to get elected and I'll vote for him in a heartbeat.

Ron Paul aint winning people. Face the facts.
 
#87
#87
NEOCON said:
I'm not a coward.

I just have no faith in the average American to do the right thing to get us out of this mess.

I do have faith in myself that I can stockpile enough by the time I'm 45 to retire and make sure neither I nor my kids ever have to worry.

This comes down to my lack of faith in Americans as a whole anymore. They're just pathetic and lazy.
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A) If you believe that Romney is the best person running for president and you vote for him, then you are not a coward.

B) If you are voting for whomever the GOP runs simply in the hope of beating Obama, then you are letting fear cause you to compromise yourself.

I define cowardice as letting fear cause you to compromise yourself.

I am not saying if you are A or B. That is up to you.
 
#88
#88
NEOCON said:
I've never been one to make a statement just so I can say I made a statement.

You show me a 3rd party candidate who actually has a chance to get elected and I'll vote for him in a heartbeat.

Ron Paul aint winning people. Face the facts.
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You will not see that candidate if so many people as yourself don't ever have the faith to stick their necks out and actually support them. You complain that they don't have a chance, yet you don't vote for them.

That makes no sense at all.
 
#89
#89
milohimself said:
There is plenty of local level third party stuff going on. Greens, socialists, libertarians, etc. all have city and muni offices across the country, even a few people in state houses. But they are systematically kept out of elected federal positions, quite purposefully, by the Dems and GOP.
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if there were "plenty" of people like you say then there would be a legitimate 3rd party. There are a here and there but not enough to make a difference. In Tennessee they are dem or rep. That's not "plenty". You might a few extra out in Oregon but nothing that here in the south or around to make a dent.

As NECON said, "You show me a 3rd party candidate who actually has a chance to get elected and I'll vote for him in a heartbeat". Amen.
 
#90
#90
Rasputin_Vol said:
You will not see that candidate if so many people as yourself don't ever have the faith to stick their necks out and actually support them. You complain that they don't have a chance, yet you don't vote for them.

That makes no sense at all.
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So voting for a third party over and over never getting a different result is different? That makes no sense at all.
 
#91
#91
RespectTradition said:
A) If you believe that Romney is the best person running for president and you vote for him, then you are not a coward.

B) If you are voting for whomever the GOP runs simply in the hope of beating Obama, then you are letting fear cause you to compromise yourself.

I define cowardice as letting fear cause you to compromise yourself.

I am not saying if you are A or B. That is up to you.
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Ok, RP (me, you on the island) let's do this...


It is stupid, childish, living in a fantasy world to think that this country will ever be in a 3 party system and that any 3rd party candidate has a snowballs shot in hell of winning.

This is reality.

Therefore when voting one must live within reality and vote based upon what could actually happen.

Anyone who thinks this country has a chance of turning around and fixing itself needs to ...wait for it...look out their back window into the real world.

This country is being ran, through votes, by the poor and lazy now. It's over.
 
#92
#92
GreveHaller said:
if there were "plenty" of people like you say then there would be a legitimate 3rd party. There are a here and there but not enough to make a difference. In Tennessee they are dem or rep. That's not "plenty". You might a few extra out in Oregon but nothing that here in the south or around to make a dent.

As NECON said, "You show me a 3rd party candidate who actually has a chance to get elected and I'll vote for him in a heartbeat". Amen.
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No 3rd party will have a chance if you have people that are scared to vote for them... even though that candidate actually lines up more with their interests than either of the major party candidates.

It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy with you guys. You don't have faith that a 3rd party candidate can win, so you don't vote 3rd party...
 
#93
#93
Rasputin_Vol said:
No 3rd party will have a chance if you have people that are scared to vote for them... even though that candidate actually lines up more with their interests than either of the major party candidates.

It is like a self-fulfilling prophecy with you guys. You don't have faith that a 3rd party candidate can win, so you don't vote 3rd party...
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how has your way worked so far?
 
#94
#94
Neither Obama or Romney will be getting my vote. I could care less which candidate it hurts or helps because both are terrible.

Having only two realistic choices for any major national office is horrible. No matter what choice you make both candidates will carry enormous baggage with them to the WH because they have a D or a R next to their name.
 
#95
#95
Rasputin_Vol said:
You will not see that candidate if so many people as yourself don't ever have the faith to stick their necks out and actually support them. You complain that they don't have a chance, yet you don't vote for them.

That makes no sense at all.
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ugg.

votes dont get people elected.

money backing the candidate to get them exposure gets them elected.

voting at the polls for john doe is not sticking your neck out. It would only cause the democrat to win and the vote will be forgotten.

anybody remember ross perot? that was 20 years ago and still no 3rd party.
 
#96
#96
NEOCON said:
This country is being ran, through votes, by the poor and lazy now. It's over.
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The poor, the lazy and the conformist (afraid of thinking outside the box). They are the ones killing the country.

Again, revolutions and change has never been started by electing pragmatists or establishment politicians.

If you want change, you have to be willing to put your votes on the line.
 
#97
#97
The problem isn't that they can't get traction it is that they are actively kept down by the major parties. If youre waiting for a third party candidate thats viable, you'll be waiting a long, long time. Like forever ish.
 
#98
#98
GreveHaller said:
how has your way worked so far?
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About as well as your way of doing things has worked.

Actually, better. There is no blood on my hands. You are the ones that have said that not only have you supported the current process, but will continue to do so. Meanwhile, this same process is what is driving us into the ditch.
 
#99
#99
NEOCON said:
Ok, RP (me, you on the island) let's do this...


It is stupid, childish, living in a fantasy world to think that this country will ever be in a 3 party system and that any 3rd party candidate has a snowballs shot in hell of winning.

This is reality.

Therefore when voting one must live within reality and vote based upon what could actually happen.

Anyone who thinks this country has a chance of turning around and fixing itself needs to ...wait for it...look out their back window into the real world.

This country is being ran, through votes, by the poor and lazy now. It's over.
Click to expand...

We don't have to achieve a third party win.

Look at what Goldwater did. In a loss, he helped redefine and recreate the GOP.

I believe the real reason that we haven't had a truly effective third party since the 1850's is because the parties learned from that. Now, rather than lose their base and their relevance, they adapt to new norms. I want to change the paradigm. That cannot be done if we keep telling them with our money and our votes that the status quo is acceptable.

The poor and lazy are certainly a big part of the problem. However, I don't think we have passed the point of no return. (most of the time that is, sometimes I get beat down) If someone could just come up with something that will resonate with people, then a change could happen. No one resonates to Romney.

People are not usually rational when it comes to politics. They will not always act in their own best interests. They tend to think too short term. They want something for nothing. The trick is to figure out a way to let them think they are getting what they want while really making fundamental changes to the system.

I don't claim to know how to do that.

I do know that if we don't give the GOP a reason to change, it will not. I have given up on the Dems. I think they are too far gone.
 
#100
#100
Rasputin_Vol said:
The poor, the lazy and the conformist (afraid of thinking outside the box). They are the ones killing the country.

Again, revolutions and change has never been started by electing pragmatists or establishment politicians.

If you want change, you have to be willing to put your votes on the line.
Click to expand...

rev-a-loo-tion!!!!
 
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