Is America at war with islam?

[MaehlMan]

Go do some research on Christian groups in India, Uganda, etc. that kill in the name of Christianity.

I'm a white Christian, but I'm not oblivious to the facts.
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[therealUT]

I bet I can find family members of 3000 deceased Americans, some of whom were Muslim, that would vehemently disagree.

I don't doubt that you could. I imagine you could also find thousands of people who would like to see bin Laden's corpse hanging from the Statue of Liberty.

I just feel that we should not be doing this for the sake of vengeance. We took out bin Laden as an obligation to justice. Justice was served, IMO, the moment his heart stopped beating.

You take the body away from Pakistan for two reasons:
1. Verify it is bin Laden.
2. Keep any radicals from enshrining him, further establishing him as a 'martyr'.

You dump the body as quickly as possible for two reasons:
1. No one will ever find his remains.
2. Diminishes the threat of a hostage situation in which Americans are ransomed for the remains.

Providing him with Islamic funeral rights was not something that took a lot of effort and/or forced our Sailors to go very much out of their way. I see no problem with it.

 

[rjd970]

Go do some research on Christian groups in India, Uganda, etc. that kill in the name of Christianity.

I'm a white Christian, but I'm not oblivious to the facts.
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Absurd as well. Islam, Christian, etc...any nutjob can go find scriptural references or religious teachings and pervert it to their agenda. Do you consider such Christian groups a true representative of your faith?

 

[MaehlMan]

No, and I'm sure that most rational Muslims don't find al-Qaeda to be a true representation of theirs.

Perhaps I should have said in the name of "Christianity."
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[rjd970]

I don't doubt that you could. I imagine you could also find thousands of people who would like to see bin Laden's corpse hanging from the Statue of Liberty.

I just feel that we should not be doing this for the sake of vengeance. We took out bin Laden as an obligation to justice. Justice was served, IMO, the moment his heart stopped beating.

You take the body away from Pakistan for two reasons:
1. Verify it is bin Laden.
2. Keep any radicals from enshrining him, further establishing him as a 'martyr'.

You dump the body as quickly as possible for two reasons:
1. No one will ever find his remains.
2. Diminishes the threat of a hostage situation in which Americans are ransomed for the remains.

Providing him with Islamic funeral rights was not something that took a lot of effort and/or forced our Sailors to go very much out of their way. I see no problem with it.

That is my issue. I see that as a fundamental statement of hypocrisy. This guy killed in the name of Islam, moderates disown him as a representative of their faith. Take his body, do the DNA, then dump him overboard. Any moderate Muslim, really believing what they say, shouldn't have a problem with it. By their beliefs and public statements, he wasn't "Muslim".

And I think your first sentence is absolutely false. I would be willing to be a significant majority of those who lost loved ones on 911 would have wanted him to suffer as much as possible, then unceremoniously dumped overboard.

 

[rjd970]

No, and I'm sure that most rational Muslims don't find al-Qaeda to be a true representation of theirs.

Perhaps I should have said in the name of "Christianity."
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So if you were a rational Muslim, would you have a problem with him just being dumped overboard, instead of cleaned, wrapped in a white sheet, and buried at see while Koranic verses were read?

 

[rjd970]

Think about this RealUT, you are saying moderate and extremist Muslim are in absolute agreement on how he was treated in the Islamic tradition.

What does that say about the moderates who very publicly disown him?

 

[therealUT]

That is my issue. I see that as a fundamental statement of hypocrisy. This guy killed in the name of Islam, moderates disown him as a representative of their faith. Take his body, do the DNA, then dump him overboard. Any moderate Muslim, really believing what they say, shouldn't have a problem with it. By their beliefs and public statements, he wasn't "Muslim".

He was a Muslim, though. He took a very literal and fundamental view of the Koran, that many Muslims object to; however, those Muslims would also agree with the merciful and forgiving elements of the Koran. Therefore, they would not cry out against this act regarding the disposal of his corpse.

There was not a large outcry from Christians when John Brown was given a Christian burial; in fact, he was held in significantly high status among Christians for a handful of years after he died.

And I think your first sentence is absolutely false.

You do not believe there are at least a couple thousand Americans who would have wanted to see bin Laden strung up on the statue of Liberty?

I would be willing to be a significant majority of those who lost loved ones on 911 would have wanted him to suffer as much as possible, then unceremoniously dumped overboard.

That sounds to me like vengeance, not justice.

 

[therealUT]

Think about this RealUT, you are saying moderate and extremist Muslim are in absolute agreement on how he was treated in the Islamic tradition.

What does that say about the moderates who very publicly disown him?

That they might view Allah as all-forgiving.

 

[hmanvolfan]

Bin Laden got his brains blown out because he was a murdering mad dog. The lunatics in the Islamic world that are currently condemning his death with their absurd demonstrations should be dealt with likewise.

 

[rjd970]

That they might view Allah as all-forgiving.

Then they have no right, whatsoever, to gripe when they get a bad name for what he did. The gsvols, volfanjustins, etc of the world..as much as it pains me to say it..have a point when they post the nonsense they do. All Muslims need to either disavow, in every aspect, what this man stood for, or accept the blowback for what they believe.

To stop the widespread misconceptions about the vast majority of Muslims, it doesn't start with educating the ignorance of those who don't believe in Islam, it has to start with the ones who do.

 

[BoseefusTheVol]

What's the big deal about his burial??! We are not savages. The right thing was done.

 

[rjd970]

He was a Muslim, though. He took a very literal and fundamental view of the Koran, that many Muslims object to; however, those Muslims would also agree with the merciful and forgiving elements of the Koran. Therefore, they would not cry out against this act regarding the disposal of his corpse.
There was not a large outcry from Christians when John Brown was given a Christian burial; in fact, he was held in significantly high status among Christians for a handful of years after he died.



You do not believe there are at least a couple thousand Americans who would have wanted to see bin Laden strung up on the statue of Liberty?



That sounds to me like vengeance, not justice.

Honestly...I mean be honest with yourself here...do you really think those moderates would have been upset had he not gotten a proper burial?

 

[therealUT]

Honestly...I mean be honest with yourself here...do you really think those moderates would have been upset had he not gotten a proper burial?

I would have been upset had we just dumped him in the sea without any dignity or respect; therefore, I imagine they would have been upset as well.

 

[rjd970]

What's the big deal about his burial??! We are not savages. The right thing was done.

Disagree. These are the same type of people that drag American bodies through the street and behead them on camera. It isn't about being savages, it is about giving this guy what he earned...which certainly wasn't respect for his beliefs (by his own words) that caused the deaths of 3000 Americans.

 

[BoseefusTheVol]

Honestly...I mean be honest with yourself here...do you really think those moderates would have been upset had he not gotten a proper burial?

No. They would not have been upset.
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[BoseefusTheVol]

Disagree. These are the same type of people that drag American bodies through the street and behead them on camera. It isn't about being savages, it is about giving this guy what he earned...which certainly wasn't respect for his beliefs (by his own words) that caused the deaths of 3000 Americans.

So we should act in the same way?
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[rjd970]

I would have been upset had we just dumped him in the sea without any dignity or respect; therefore, I imagine they would have been upset as well.

This is part of the problem, as I see it. Until it is corrected, and moderates distance themselves at every possible opportunity to do so with the extremists, then the PR problem Islam suffers from will not go away.

I don't know how many times I can say it. According to moderates, this guy was only a Muslim by his own declaration. There needs to be consistency. The same principle is at play here as it was with the cartoons and the like. Distance from brutal potests and extremists at every avenue, and respect for free speech and true moderation is the only medicine.

It would have gone a long way for Islamic leaders around the world to demand why this man was treated like a Muslim. This political correctness, let's put all faith on a pedastal, all are equally good baloney is the problem. And it is a big one with Islam right now.

 

[rjd970]

No. They would not have been upset.
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Historically, what reason do you have to believe this?

And I know for a fact the extremists would have been. It would take a whole other level of naivety to deny this. Placate the extremists.

 

[rjd970]

So we should act in the same way?
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No, but we shouldn't take careful consideration to make sure his jihadists followers are happy with the way we handle his body. Dump him overboard with no pictures in the middle of the night. Problem solved. Our argument, and those around the world, should be if he deserved a proper Muslim burial, he should have acted like a Muslim.

 

[BoseefusTheVol]

This is part of the problem, as I see it. Until it is corrected, and moderates distance themselves at every possible opportunity to do so with the extremists, then the PR problem Islam suffers from will not go away.

I don't know how many times I can say it. According to moderates, this guy was only a Muslim by his own declaration. There needs to be consistency. The same principle is at play here as it was with the cartoons and the like. Distance from brutal potests and extremists at every avenue, and respect for free speech and true moderation is the only medicine.

It would have gone a long way for Islamic leaders around the world to demand why this man was treated like a Muslim. This political correctness, let's put all faith on a pedastal, all are equally good baloney is the problem. And it is a big one with Islam right now.

Really? Wouldn't that be critisizing our actions regarding the burial? And some would gripe about that. Fact of the matter is 99% of the muslim world don't care how he was buried.
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[BoseefusTheVol]

Historically, what reason do you have to believe this?

And I know for a fact the extremists would have been. It would take a whole other level of naivety to deny this. Placate the extremists.

Trust me. I know.
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[milohimself]

No, but we shouldn't take careful consideration to make sure his jihadists followers are happy with the way we handle his body. Dump him overboard with no pictures in the middle of the night. Problem solved. Our argument, and those around the world, should be if he deserved a proper Muslim burial, he should have acted like a Muslim.

Ever heard of the high road? Once his soul left his body, it was just another corpse.

Answer this only with a yes or no: is there anything to be gained from desecrating a corpse?
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[rjd970]

Really? Wouldn't that be critisizing our actions regarding the burial? And some would gripe about that. Fact of the matter is 99% of the muslim world don't care how he was buried.
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Would really like to know why you think this is true.

Recent history has brightly illuminated us to the fact that Muslims, moderate and extremist alike, are more concerned with perceived slights against their faith then they are about the ridiculous actions of those who seek retribution for perceived disrespect.

 

[rjd970]

Ever heard of the high road? Once his soul left his body, it was just another corpse.

Answer this only with a yes or no: is there anything to be gained from desecrating a corpse?
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Yes.

It shows that we never considered this man a proper Muslim. And who said anything about desecrating? I'm just saying don't give him a burial in Islamic tradition.