Is the American Dream Dead?

[BeecherVol]

I'd still rather live here than any where else in the world. No one ever said the American Dream was easy. It was never easy. It was built with sweat and blood. People today just expect it to be handed to them.

There is a group that considers that the "American Dream".

 

[bam15]

So do you guys believe this is an American only thing or could it be done in other countries?
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It's certainly possible in throughout the world, and other countries have caught on, but we are still the "City upon a hill."

You won't find a bigger believer in American Exceptionalism than me.

 

[volinbham]

So do you guys believe this is an American only thing or could it be done in other countries?
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See Beecher's and Bam's posts.

Beecher said it best - opportunity.

Be what you want to be is universal (I hope). Chance to do that? Hard to beat the U.S. but it can be done elsewhere.

I think Am. Exceptionalism is the ideal that people here are infused with the realization that they CAN pursue what they want to pursue. Part is our history - we are made of people who risked all to do this - it is our core ethic. It can happen elsewhere but it is (was?) part of our national DNA.

To take it a step further and at the risk of speaking for conservatives: I (we) loathe the dependency that government programs create as it fundamentally affects that core DNA. Compare us to Europe. We are Europeans that fled government control. It's oversimplification but those that stayed behind have been under the control of one form of government after another. The U.S. on the other hand has consistently been shaped by the will of the populace (except for the original inhabitants and slaves). That is American Exceptionalism and the more we cede more reliance of our daily existence to the government the more we lose that. Individualism has its costs but it is the closest you'll get to freedom. If that's what you value, the U.S. system is your best option.

 

[BeecherVol]

See Beecher's and Bam's posts.

Beecher said it best - opportunity.

Be what you want to be is universal (I hope). Chance to do that? Hard to beat the U.S. but it can be done elsewhere.

I think Am. Exceptionalism is the ideal that people here are infused with the realization that they CAN pursue what they want to pursue. Part is our history - we are made of people who risked all to do this - it is our core ethic. It can happen elsewhere but it is (was?) part of our national DNA.

To take it a step further and at the risk of speaking for conservatives: I (we) loathe the dependency that government programs create as it fundamentally affects that core DNA. Compare us to Europe. We are Europeans that fled government control. It's oversimplification but those that stayed behind have been under the control of one form of government after another. The U.S. on the other hand has consistently been shaped by the will of the populace (except for the original inhabitants and slaves). That is American Exceptionalism and the more we cede more reliance of our daily existence to the government the more we lose that. Individualism has its costs but it is the closest you'll get to freedom. If that's what you value, the U.S. system is your best option.

Thats a little more in depth. Well put.

 

[TXA&M07]

I'd certainly like to think it's not.
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[Electric Orange]

What does everyone believe the American Dream is exactly?

2 things:
1) Being able to work hard to ensure your future well-being
2) Being more successful than the generation before you

 

[Electric Orange]

The "American Dream" is not about getting more out of life, but more of having the opportunity to.

The desire is irrelevant really. Most people have the desire to have/be better. The opportunity is what sets it apart.

i agree. But do today's kids really have that opportunity? We have what 15 TRILLION in debt?

 

[Electric Orange]

I hope the dream ain't dead, but I'm not optimistic for the future.

 

[volinbham]

2 things:

2) Being more successful than the generation before you - if that's important to you and depending on what you mean by success

fyp - personally, I see the American Dream from an individual perspective - it is YOUR dream; not some collective dream. If your dream is for equality, social justice etc. you can pursue it to your heart's content. If your dream is to own an eff'n island more power to you. If your dream is to own a cabin on 100 acres, grow your own food and get off the grid well that works too.

 

[BeecherVol]

i agree. But do today's kids really have that opportunity? We have what 15 TRILLION in debt?

It could at some point, assuming things continually get worse, and never recover.

If the opportunity or desire to take advantage of it diminishes, then it has changed. But even that is on an individual basis.

 

[BeecherVol]

fyp - personally, I see the American Dream from an individual perspective - it is YOUR dream; not some collective dream. If your dream is for equality, social justice etc. you can pursue it to your heart's content. If your dream is to own an eff'n island more power to you. If your dream is to own a cabin on 100 acres, grow your own food and get off the grid well that works too.

It could at some point, assuming things continually get worse, and never recover.

If the opportunity or desire to take advantage of it diminishes, then it has changed. But even that is on an individual basis.

Peat and repeat.

 

[volinbham]

Peat and repeat.

:hi:

 

[Electric Orange]

on a positive note, i think we got a great recruiting class. i'm excited for next year!

 

[gsvol]

i agree. But do today's kids really have that opportunity? We have what 15 TRILLION in debt?

The thing that POs me to no end is that my grandchildren will have this great debt placed upon their shoulders.

It is enough to make me want to snuff out some politicians.

And what is the downside of that?? (if I even get cautht)

They can kill me but the probably won't eat me and I most likely aam going to die anyway.

They can put me in jail but that means three squares, a roof over my head and free medical, so what?

I am seriously POed about the deficit spending going on and if the republicans allow the debt ceiling to go up then all bets are off.

Scroll back to my thread; "who controls American finance?"

Perhaps some kenesyan economist (bam 15 or others) can explain to me how we pay the debt off, or when the debt becomes so great that we can pay the interest, what happens then??

 

[gsvol]

on a positive note, i think we got a great recruiting class. i'm excited for next year!

Yep, it looks good and it looks like we filled our needs.

 

[utgibbs]

The "American Dream" is not about getting more out of life, but more of having the opportunity to.

The desire is irrelevant really. Most people have the desire to have/be better. The opportunity is what sets it apart.

Europe has higher social mobility than the US.

Just sayin'

an OECD report, so not a mouthpiece for my point of view: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/7/45002641.pdf

 

[utgibbs]

2 things:
1) Being able to work hard to ensure your future well-being
2) Being more successful than the generation before you

1. I think the "hard work" thing is a complete myth, I'm afraid. If that were the case, then every mechanic and every lineman for the county I know would be a lot wealthier than I, and I don't know one who is even close and many run their own garages (which partly shapes my world view). In fact, I've been tempted to write "Real Confessions of an Entrepreneur" because the idea of work and wealth myth is so divorced from reality. But, I think it is a beautiful ideal. Since the 1970s, this notion has not played out in reality at all. Working hard has earned less and less over that time.

2. If success means having more purchasing power than the generation before, it looks grim. Other ideas of success though could be possible - but the culture would have to change.

I'm not purposefully being a killjoy, EO. If you are at UT now, and wondering what the heck it's going to be like out there, and wondering if it will all be worth it - I understand your feelings.

 

[bam15]

The thing that POs me to no end is that my grandchildren will have this great debt placed upon their shoulders.

It is enough to make me want to snuff out some politicians.

And what is the downside of that?? (if I even get cautht)

They can kill me but the probably won't eat me and I most likely aam going to die anyway.

They can put me in jail but that means three squares, a roof over my head and free medical, so what?

I am seriously POed about the deficit spending going on and if the republicans allow the debt ceiling to go up then all bets are off.

Scroll back to my thread; "who controls American finance?"

Perhaps some kenesyan economist (bam 15 or others) can explain to me how we pay the debt off, or when the debt becomes so great that we can pay the interest, what happens then??

Debt is irrelevant when you have a possibility for the entire collapse of a financial system and economy. Quite simply, lowering interest rates as a stimulator alone isn't enough. The United States had dangerously low deflationary indications even when we were pumping money into the economy, lowering interest rates, and providing tax credits -- and tax rates are already extremely low. Now you have the Becks of the world screaming hyperinflation because of rising commodity prices. (Wrong)

Moreover, I'm an advocate of structured budgets. Some of my same friends don't believe that after a full recovery that we should stop the influx of cash. I disagree. The problem occurs when our nation becomes a greedy, self-obsessed group of people who doesn't know when to stop. I believe we can fully recover, but even the pure free-market, capitalist havens of the world are struggling (Estonia).

I'll say this: Pure free-market or pure control economy won't work in our country. The hogwash that China will eventually pass us up is wrong. The Chinese have no creativity at all. Unfortunately, our culture has regressively receded into a lazy, greedy society that has temporarily lost it's way (In general). Instead of working our butts off, we whine and complain. But, Americans still have a unique role in the world, and our foundations and framework are planted firmly.

On the debt, paying it off in it's entirety looks grim to impossible. However, I'm certain the temporarily increase in deficits are imperative to economic stability. Doing little to nothing would have been catastrophic. It may come to a shock to some here, but I have no problems with lowering the minimum wage, transitioning welfare and entitlement programs to faith-based groups and charities, and keeping the Bush tax-cuts. (Even though I have a disagreement with the horizontal equity/borderline Gilded age) But, that also comes with ideas like modernizing the military into a lighter force, more along the lines of the Rumsfeld doctrine. I think common-sense ideas among both aisles can be made (Drug-testing for all that receive Gov't funds). Waste elimination and cuts can be made, but going 1787 revolutionary mode is unrealistic.

 

[bam15]

fyp - personally, I see the American Dream from an individual perspective - it is YOUR dream; not some collective dream. If your dream is for equality, social justice etc. you can pursue it to your heart's content. If your dream is to own an eff'n island more power to you. If your dream is to own a cabin on 100 acres, grow your own food and get off the grid well that works too.

I guess I can see where you are coming from. I'd rather it be partially collective though. The individual dreams vary, and have regressed over time. The dreams of starting small businesses have turned into receiving a check and settling for less. I understand that we have no control
over other people, as we shouldn't, but the American people (And again, in general) don't aspire like they use to.
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[BeecherVol]

Europe has higher social mobility than the US.

Just sayin'

an OECD report, so not a mouthpiece for my point of view: http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/2/7/45002641.pdf

Outstanding!

Are you planning to take advantage?

 

[BeecherVol]

I guess I can see where you are coming from. I'd rather it be partially collective though. The individual dreams vary, and have regressed over time. The dreams of starting small businesses have turned into receiving a check and settling for less. I understand that we have no control
over other people, as we shouldn't, but the American people (And again, in general) don't aspire like they use to.
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Yes and no.

I recently started my own business in the field I have been in for a few years now. I walked away from a steady check to penny pinching the last 8 months trying to survive the start. Most would view my first 3 quarters in business a failure because Im making less money than when I worked for someone else. The difference is I have the opportunity to reach what and I left and exceed it at some point. Didn't have that before.

Edit: To go a little further, part of my "dream" was to work for myself, that part is well worth it to me. Which is all that matters.

I agree that many do not aspire like they used to, but the opportunity is still there.

 

[BigPapaVol]

1. I think the "hard work" thing is a complete myth, I'm afraid. If that were the case, then every mechanic and every lineman for the county I know would be a lot wealthier than I, and I don't know one who is even close and many run their own garages (which partly shapes my world view). In fact, I've been tempted to write "Real Confessions of an Entrepreneur" because the idea of work and wealth myth is so divorced from reality. But, I think it is a beautiful ideal. Since the 1970s, this notion has not played out in reality at all. Working hard has earned less and less over that time.

There is nothing I've ever read anywhere about hard work equating to successful financial outcomes. None, whatsoever and it has nothing to do with the American dream. Just because your bent on equality of financial outcomes makes you dream of Euroworthlessness for Americans, don't foist that upon us as the American dream.

2. If success means having more purchasing power than the generation before, it looks grim. Other ideas of success though could be possible - but the culture would have to change.

It's a ridiculous measure of success, especially when the American dream is a very individual thing. Collective dreams are for the Europeans and they can keep them. The culture shift that has to happen so that we can stop reading this drivel is for you to understand that self determination is huge driver for Americans and is a part of how we became who we are. Government determination has undermined several generations and is getting worse.

I'm not purposefully being a killjoy, EO. If you are at UT now, and wondering what the heck it's going to be like out there, and wondering if it will all be worth it - I understand your feelings.

You aren't being anything beyond a very transparent Eurosocialist. What's new?

 

[MWR]

I'd still rather live here than any where else in the world. No one ever said the American Dream was easy. It was never easy. It was built with sweat and blood. People today just expect it to be handed to them.

There is a group that considers that the "American Dream".

I know this story to be true.

I know a man who works for a living. He's a painter. He paints houses, apartments, buildings, whatever work he can get. He works long, hard hours to make a living. And he can make a decent living at his trade.

Another man applied for and got a govt. disability check. Now he goes out and also bids on the same painting jobs. Of course he can bid lower on the work, because of the govt check he draws. Of course he works for cash.

These type of things happen all to often and they tend to discourage those who try to work to achieve the American Dream.

Some achieve the American Dream by walking to their mailbox and picking up their check.

 

[utgibbs]

fyp - personally, I see the American Dream from an individual perspective - it is YOUR dream; not some collective dream. If your dream is for equality, social justice etc. you can pursue it to your heart's content. If your dream is to own an eff'n island more power to you. If your dream is to own a cabin on 100 acres, grow your own food and get off the grid well that works too.

I do think there is a collective vision to the "American Dream." I think it is part of the American mythology.

 

[utgibbs]

You aren't being anything beyond a very transparent Eurosocialist. What's new?

The American Dream seems to warrant a collectivist Wikipage:

American Dream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

seems to be a recurring theme in the collective American literature.