Is the American Dream Dead?

#51
#51
utgibbs said:
I do think there is a collective vision to the "American Dream." I think it is part of the American mythology.
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of course you do, but that has nothing to do with what this nation is or was founded upon. The guys that put this place together were all individualists.
 
#53
#53
utgibbs said:
I do think there is a collective vision to the "American Dream." I think it is part of the American mythology.
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I did not mean to imply that there is no commonality nor that pure self interest seeking is the core of the AD.

I'm responding to the repeated link of the AD to the state of the nation as a whole.

You in particular seem obsessed with looking at the aggregate and directly linking the AD with increasing collective wealth/standard of living.

I disagree with that characterization. At its core, the AD is an individual dream but it occurs in a country of relatively like minded people who also pursue their own dreams. It's is borne out of a collective culture that recognizes that such dream pursuit is an individual endeavor but the culture as a whole supports such pursuit and mechanisms that allow for such pursuit.

Looking at whether one generation will be better off than another collectively is not the embodiment of the AD.



You haven't told us your definition of the AD.
 
#54
#54
BeecherVol said:
Outstanding!

Are you planning to take advantage?
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By the way, I wouldn't consider making less money in the first 3Qs failure in the least. It is hard for any business right now. Being in the black and being happy is all that matters. I think most people would like to work for themselves, but I don't think it's something you can learn in school either. And I don't mind riffing John Taylor Gatto there.

My business has strong ties to Europe, so I suppose you would have to say, in a way, I am taking advantage. :hi:
 
#55
#55
utvolpj said:
you do know how wikipedia pages get created right?

and the AD is not dead but fewer wish to chase it.
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Absolutely 100% the truth.


I've noticed that there are plenty of first generation immigrants that seem to be doing perfectly well for themselves. I've noticed that US born people seem to feel a sense of entitlement. They lack ambition, hard work and the drive that defined the "American Dream" to begin with.

It's still there ("the Dream") it's just people don't want to have to work to attain it.
 
#56
#56
volinbham said:
I did not mean to imply that there is no commonality nor that pure self interest seeking is the core of the AD.

I'm responding to the repeated link of the AD to the state of the nation as a whole.

You in particular seem obsessed with looking at the aggregate and directly linking the AD with increasing collective wealth/standard of living.

1. I disagree with that characterization. At its core, the AD is an individual dream but it occurs in a country of relatively like minded people who also pursue their own dreams.

2. Looking at whether one generation will be better off than another collectively is not the embodiment of the AD.



3. You haven't told us your definition of the AD.
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1. That's fair enough.

2. That seems to be a common thread, and a historical perogative. Part of that "like-minded sentiment."

3. You just want a :popcorn: post. And it would be too damn long. It is important to lay this groundwork first before even trying.
 
#57
#57
BigPapaVol said:
of course you do, but that has nothing to do with what this nation is or was founded upon. The guys that put this place together were all individualists.
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The Native Americans?

Even if you mean the Founding Dads, there is a common theme permeating American literature dubbed "the American Dream." I can hook-up with volinbham's explanation, but to deny there exists a common mythology just won't fly.
 
#58
#58
BeecherVol said:
Yes and no.

I recently started my own business in the field I have been in for a few years now. I walked away from a steady check to penny pinching the last 8 months trying to survive the start. Most would view my first 3 quarters in business a failure because Im making less money than when I worked for someone else. The difference is I have the opportunity to reach what and I left and exceed it at some point. Didn't have that before.

Edit: To go a little further, part of my "dream" was to work for myself, that part is well worth it to me. Which is all that matters.

I agree that many do not aspire like they used to, but the opportunity is still there.
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Well, you're an outlier, and I'm glad to hear of your aspirations. I didn't mean to necessarily imply that money is the American Dream, more so aspirations, dreams, and hard-work. The two do tend to coincide at times.

Best of luck with your business.
 
#59
#59
utvolpj said:
you do know how wikipedia pages get created right?

and the AD is not dead but fewer wish to chase it.
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I wish we had some data for this sentiment.

I disagree. I think people have made the rational decision based on two generations living with a neoliberal economy. Monopoly capital in harmony with full freedom of capital flight and the institutionalization of corporate power (vice a "nation of shopkeepers" and other self-reliant folk) has destroyed US Main Street for two generations. Look around. The Main Streets across the Western World were run by a class of artisans and merchants, self-reliant folk. Now, not so much. About four kinds of shops owned by locals (and many of them will be immigrants running restaurants) occupy "Main Street USA"
 
#60
#60
utgibbs said:
I wish we had some data for this sentiment.

I disagree. I think people have made the rational decision based on two generations living with a neoliberal economy. Monopoly capital in harmony with full freedom of capital flight and the institutionalization of corporate power (vice a "nation of shopkeepers" and other self-reliant folk) has destroyed US Main Street for two generations. Look around. The Main Streets across the Western World were run by a class of artisans and merchants, self-reliant folk. Now, not so much. About four kinds of shops owned by locals (and many of them will be immigrants running restaurants) occupy "Main Street USA"
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What is your dream, utgibbs?

What do you want out of your life in these United States?

If you keep echoing other's comments while eschewing your own... you're selling yourself out. The "American Dream" is exactly what you make of it. So, in order to debate if the AD is dead... it must first be statically defined from an individual's viewpoint.

It can be summarized in a very short and concise statement.
 
#61
#61
utgibbs said:
The Native Americans?

Even if you mean the Founding Dads, there is a common theme permeating American literature dubbed "the American Dream." I can hook-up with volinbham's explanation, but to deny there exists a common mythology just won't fly.
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what do the native Americans have to do with it?

The American Dream does appear a lot and connotes a lot of things, but I have never found it to mean anything vis a vis generational financial success. That just doesn't work.

I don't care that there exists some common mythology, but what the hell does that matter.
 
#67
#67
Interesting topic.

I'm going to make things simple: I think the American Dream is the following idea: "If I don't like my life and the way it's going, I can change it and make it go a different way."

Isn't that basically it? Am I missing something?

Now, is it dead? I say no. I think fewer people are chasing it, though, for a number of reasons.

I think education takes too long these days. It's not really very safe to go without a college degree, but getting one takes until 23 or so. By that time, you're more ready for a family and less willing to take risks.

I think parenting responsibilities have changed. It's far more rare for one parent to work 16 hours a day and have no hand in the daily kid-welfare. Parenting expectation, in general, is "share and share alike." If one spouse pursues a dream for 18 hours a day, the other spouse isn't going to readily like or accept that.

I think the purchasing power of the middle class has dropped, making the "risk" window shorter. If you don't get in the black pretty quick, you're gonna have to bail.

I think the expected standard of living of the middle class has simultaneously increased, so again, the "other" spouse is going to have about 1 week of patience before your "dream" becomes "get a ****ing job."

More maybe could be said, but IMO these are factors.
 
#68
#68
StepCross said:
Interesting topic.

I'm going to make things simple: I think the American Dream is the following idea: "If I don't like my life and the way it's going, I can change it and make it go a different way."

Isn't that basically it? Am I missing something?
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works for me
 
#69
#69
StepCross said:
Interesting topic.

I'm going to make things simple: I think the American Dream is the following idea: "If I don't like my life and the way it's going, I can change it and make it go a different way."

Isn't that basically it? Am I missing something?
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Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.*



*Results not guaranteed. Individual definitions will vary.
 
#70
#70
BigPapaVol said:
what do the native Americans have to do with it?

The American Dream does appear a lot and connotes a lot of things, but I have never found it to mean anything vis a vis generational financial success. That just doesn't work.

I don't care that there exists some common mythology, but what the hell does that matter.
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It's been a constant for most of human history.

Until lately. :dunno:
 
#71
#71
The short answer would be: to be a part of an world project, led by America, which will leave the world in a better condition than I entered it, one in which people and ecosystems were healthier, happier, and sustainable for my kids and generations after.

That's a pretty good short answer.

and unfortunately, we seem to shirk that world project and the leadership role at every possible opportunity.
 
#72
#72
utgibbs said:
The short answer would be: to be a part of an world project, led by America, which will leave the world in a better condition than I entered it, one in which people and ecosystems were healthier, happier, and sustainable for my kids and generations after.

That's a pretty good short answer.

and unfortunately, we seem to shirk that world project and the leadership role at every possible opportunity.
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oh please.

leave it to you to make an individual endeavor into some communalistic claptrap
 
#73
#73
but but but the euro's love obama and we've all seen how much that has benefited the US.
 
#75
#75
utgibbs said:
By the way, I wouldn't consider making less money in the first 3Qs failure in the least. It is hard for any business right now. Being in the black and being happy is all that matters. I think most people would like to work for themselves, but I don't think it's something you can learn in school either. And I don't mind riffing John Taylor Gatto there.

My business has strong ties to Europe, so I suppose you would have to say, in a way, I am taking advantage. :hi:
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I don't. I knew it going in, and planned for it.
 
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