Is the American Dream Dead?

#76
#76
bam15 said:
Well, you're an outlier, and I'm glad to hear of your aspirations. I didn't mean to necessarily imply that money is the American Dream, more so aspirations, dreams, and hard-work. The two do tend to coincide at times.

Best of luck with your business.
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I was more less pitching my situation, typically everyone varies on what they want out of life to an extent, and Im not gonna stand here and act like I wouldn't enjoy more money. But the are other things at this point that make me enjoy life as well.

Thanks for the kinds words.:hi:
 
#77
#77
utgibbs said:
How can y'all diss my dream??????
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A realist would diss it in a heartbeat.

Call me a neo-conservative idealist, but we have a special role in the world, and we shouldn't shrink from the responsibility.
 
#78
#78
utgibbs said:
It's been a constant for most of human history.

Until lately. :dunno:
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No it hasn't. You're trying to take individual parents' worldview for their children and to bastardize that into some collective form of the American dream, which doesn't work. This country wasn't built around the collective. Everything else was shaped out of individual liberty. As we've lost sight of that, we have continued to erode our exceptionalism.
 
#79
#79
obviously if my kid makes less money than bill gates kid i'm extremely unhappy with the american dream.
 
#80
#80
bam15 said:
A realist would diss it in a heartbeat.

Call me a neo-conservative idealist, but we have a special role in the world, and we shouldn't shrink from the responsibility.
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If the post could have captured my tone, it would have been mildly sardonic. I expected folks to diss my dream, but what are you going to do?

It strikes me rather roughly though that a realist would diss it in a heartbeat. These aren't things that would be nice to happen (although they are), these are things that must happen. Nature and the real world get the absolute, final veto. It kinda makes you wonder what a "realist" really is....

Or course, like you, I believe the leadership will come from somewhere else though.
 
#81
#81
The American Dream is still around, it's just buried. The Baby Boomers/early Gen X buried it, and it's gonna be up to future generations to dig it back up.

When you entitle/spoil people with things, they grow to expect it.
 
#82
#82
The point about defining success is what gets me. Far too often it is measured by material pocessions and zeros in your salary. My AD is simply being afforded the opportunity to EARN a living that allows me to support my family fairly comfortably and anything else after that is just gravy. Earning a living gives a man a sense of dignity and purpose while holding up his end of the bargain in our society: being a contributor and not a taker.
 
#83
#83
utgibbs said:
The short answer would be: to be a part of an world project, led by America, which will leave the world in a better condition than I entered it, one in which people and ecosystems were healthier, happier, and sustainable for my kids and generations after.

That's a pretty good short answer.

and unfortunately, we seem to shirk that world project and the leadership role at every possible opportunity.
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In my view of the AD you are wonderfully free to pursue your dream in any way you see fit (within bounds of course).

I don't believe what you've described here captures the general notion of the AD but under the broad notion of pursuit of happiness you are enabled within this country to pursue this view point.

If you want to claim that your dream = the AD then I'd say you are in one of those - uh what's the word - super minorities.
 
#84
#84
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas is what got me thinkin' about this.
 
#85
#85
bat-country-bat-country-fear-and-loathing-in-las-vegas-demotivational-poster-1221617405.jpg
 
#86
#86
The American Dream isn't dead, but it's harder to reach now than it was years back. If you meet your goals now you're considered someone who took advantage of others, someone who cheated the system in some form, or someone that received unfair benefits. Too many of those that "can't" want to drag down those that "did".
 
#87
#87
volinbham said:
In my view of the AD you are wonderfully free to pursue your dream in any way you see fit (within bounds of course).

I don't believe what you've described here captures the general notion of the AD but under the broad notion of pursuit of happiness you are enabled within this country to pursue this view point.

If you want to claim that your dream = the AD then I'd say you are in one of those - uh what's the word - super minorities.
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No. In fact, I was pretty certain my view of the AD was antithetical to the commonly held notion of the AD.

But by BPV's and I believe your definition, everyone's AD belongs to a super-minority. In fact, it is the super-majority of 1.
 
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#88
#88
utgibbs said:
No. In fact, I was pretty certain my view of the AD was antithetical to the commonly held notion of the AD.

But by BPV's and I believe your definition, everyone's AD belongs to a super-minority. In fact, it is the super-majority of 1.
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No, you are mixing concepts.

At it's core, the AD is about being free to pursue your own path and having a culture/system that allows such pursuit.

So, while the path is individual, the commonality is that this conceptualization is generally agreed upon - so the AD has a shared meaning.

Your definition is at odds with this shared meaning so you are in your own super-minority.
 
#89
#89
volinbham said:
No, you are mixing concepts.

At it's core, the AD is about being free to pursue your own path and having a culture/system that allows such pursuit.

So, while the path is individual, the commonality is that this conceptualization is generally agreed upon - so the AD has a shared meaning.

Your definition is at odds with this shared meaning so you are in your own super-minority.
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Good explanation. :hi: And I agree I am at odds with the common denominator. I would very much like to see the common denominator change.

Although you do know you have now supported my original premise about the AD?
 
#91
#91
volinbham said:
It seems you believe this about every discussion we have so I'm not surprised. And I have no idea what your original premise was.
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I basically said the American Dream had some fundamental commonalities was part of the shared American mythology and had plenty of similar instances in American literature.
 
#93
#93
The American Dream has not died. But people need to wake up and start living within their means.

20 years ago you had to have a minimum 5% down to buy a house. It meant people had to save and scrap and once they had their home it meant something. They stayed their for ever and it was not viewed as a short term investment. Up to 2008 alot of people were buying homes as a short term invest, hoping to ride the bubble higher and then sell. That was stupid. Alot of other people bought homes way out of their price range. Reality is, the average person should not be buying a home that cost more than 200,000. The American Dream has not died. It will die though if people continue to live on their credit cards and default and the majority has to continue picking up the debt. The other mistake that this country has gotten itself into is thinking everyone needs a home to own. Apartmenst have a place in all societies. We need to understand this. Those who can own should. Those who cannot afford to own or are high risk need to rent.
 
#94
#94
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
The American Dream has not died. But people need to wake up and start living within their means.

20 years ago you had to have a minimum 5% down to buy a house. It meant people had to save and scrap and once they had their home it meant something. They stayed their for ever and it was not viewed as a short term investment. Up to 2008 alot of people were buying homes as a short term invest, hoping to ride the bubble higher and then sell. That was stupid. Alot of other people bought homes way out of their price range. Reality is, the average person should not be buying a home that cost more than 200,000. The American Dream has not died. It will die though if people continue to live on their credit cards and default and the majority has to continue picking up the debt. The other mistake that this country has gotten itself into is thinking everyone needs a home to own. Apartmenst have a place in all societies. We need to understand this. Those who can own should. Those who cannot afford to own or are high risk need to rent.
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Personally, I never want to own a home. I like renting. I don't mind that it might cost more in the long run, but I don't want to be tied down to one community for a long period of time. If I ever did buy a home, I would buy an old one to restore then sell.

[Side Note: Flipping houses would be fun, but there's not really much of a selling market for that right now. I briefly considered this with a friend who's dad was willing to put up the money for the house and allow us to fix it, flip it, and keep the profit (minus some interest).]
 
#95
#95
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
The American Dream has not died. But people need to wake up and start living within their means.

20 years ago you had to have a minimum 5% down to buy a house. It meant people had to save and scrap and once they had their home it meant something. They stayed their for ever and it was not viewed as a short term investment. Up to 2008 alot of people were buying homes as a short term invest, hoping to ride the bubble higher and then sell. That was stupid. Alot of other people bought homes way out of their price range. Reality is, the average person should not be buying a home that cost more than 200,000. The American Dream has not died. It will die though if people continue to live on their credit cards and default and the majority has to continue picking up the debt. The other mistake that this country has gotten itself into is thinking everyone needs a home to own. Apartmenst have a place in all societies. We need to understand this. Those who can own should. Those who cannot afford to own or are high risk need to rent.
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Living within your means.......very very simple to understand, yet so many don't. I get on my friends all the time.

It makes me feel like a dad. I shouldn't have to be telling you this crap. I told it was a bad idea to buy those rims and tires for you car. Yea, it looks good, but you have no money for rent dumbass. You want your credit card balance to go DOWN from month to month. Not up.
 
#96
#96
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
The American Dream has not died. But people need to wake up and start living within their means.

20 years ago you had to have a minimum 5% down to buy a house. It meant people had to save and scrap and once they had their home it meant something. They stayed their for ever and it was not viewed as a short term investment. Up to 2008 alot of people were buying homes as a short term invest, hoping to ride the bubble higher and then sell. That was stupid. Alot of other people bought homes way out of their price range. Reality is, the average person should not be buying a home that cost more than 200,000. The American Dream has not died. It will die though if people continue to live on their credit cards and default and the majority has to continue picking up the debt. The other mistake that this country has gotten itself into is thinking everyone needs a home to own. Apartmenst have a place in all societies. We need to understand this. Those who can own should. Those who cannot afford to own or are high risk need to rent.
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Yes, but they were bombarded by marketing suggesting that the rules had changed, and you didn't need such things as assets to receive instant amounts of insane credit.

It was precipitated by yet another crisis of capital accumulation. When the oil money started flowing into the banks, they needed financial speculation; when that ran out of steam, and good loans were all done, they had to start making bad loans.

The banks conned themselves into believing securitization insulated them from the bad loans and insane overleveraging.

If we are going to ground the American "consumer" into responsibility (a good thing), let's not forget the other side of the coin city boys who require even more correction and discipline.
 
#97
#97
utgibbs said:
Yes, but they were bombarded by marketing suggesting that the rules had changed, and you didn't need such things as assets to receive instant amounts of insane credit.

It was precipitated by yet another crisis of capital accumulation. When the oil money started flowing into the banks, they needed financial speculation; when that ran out of steam, and good loans were all done, they had to start making bad loans.

The banks conned themselves into believing securitization insulated them from the bad loans and insane overleveraging.

If we are going to ground the American "consumer" into responsibility (a good thing), let's not forget the other side of the coin city boys who require even more correction and discipline.
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So it's the banks fault that people are making stupid decisions?
 
#100
#100
Ihatethebuckeyes said:
So it's the banks fault that people are making stupid decisions?
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I guess so? I guess it's also the banks fault that the Clinton administration forced them to change lending standards to accomodate people that couldn't afford home loans and would never pay them back.
 
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