Islam, is it a religion of peace or war?

I do believe that.

And yes. It was incredibly stupid for you to claim that scientific empiricism has proven that time, cause and effect are all illusions. About as equally stupid as you claiming moral grandstands about slavery and God's punishment while not being able to provide any foundation for inherent human value outside of your own mind.

It’s a sad state that instead of admitting maybe, just maybe, the Bible isn’t the best arbitrator of the morality if slavery, you are saying that under certain conditions slavery is morally acceptable. I find that reprehensible and disgusting and even more the reason to disregard religion as dangerous, antiquated, and morally corrupt.

I have provided my foundation, a ridiculous amount of times. The foundation is my own. I’m going to keep saying that until it sinks in.

It’s not my fault you don’t understand the physics if how space, time, and matter works. I’m not going through it again.
 
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Anyone ever seen the YouTube video of the Muslim that died in a car wreck and came back? Can’t seem to find it but he’s converted to Christianity because he met God and he told him there is only one God. He’s also converted his whole family.
 
It’s a sad state that instead of admitting maybe, just maybe, the Bible isn’t the best arbitrator of the morality if slavery, you are saying that under certain conditions slavery is morally acceptable. I find that reprehensible and disgusting and even more the reason to disregard religion as dangerous, antiquated, and morally corrupt.

I have provided my foundation, a ridiculous amount of times. The foundation is my own. I’m going to keep saying that until it sinks in.

It’s not my fault you don’t understand the physics if how space, time, and matter works. I’m not going through it again.

You're saying that morality is your personal opinion, that human value exists only in your mind, and yet you're making moral comparisons between your opinion and the Bibles, based on a foundation that exists only in your mind?

And you don't see the internal contradiction? lol

Much like you think that your logical problem with space/time is one of physics. It's a matter of fact that your end statement invalidated the process you used to prove your end statement.

And you don't see the internal contradiction.
 
It’s a sad state that instead of admitting maybe, just maybe, the Bible isn’t the best arbitrator of the morality if slavery, you are saying that under certain conditions slavery is morally acceptable. I find that reprehensible and disgusting and even more the reason to disregard religion as dangerous, antiquated, and morally corrupt.

I have provided my foundation, a ridiculous amount of times. The foundation is my own. I’m going to keep saying that until it sinks in.

It’s not my fault you don’t understand the physics if how space, time, and matter works. I’m not going through it again.

Sorry, but once just wasn't enough to laugh at the absurdity of this. "My opinion is the standard and maybe now you'll agree to that external standard that doesn't exist that my personal, internal, opinion-standard is better.

...and morally corrupt.


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

and...





morally...


corrupt!

The foundation is my own.

HAHA.

It’s a sad state that instead of admitting maybe, just maybe, the Bible isn’t the best arbitrator of the morality if slavery, you are saying

The foundation is my own.

just maybe, the Bible isn’t the best arbitrator of the morality if slavery, you are saying that under certain conditions slavery is morally acceptable.

The foundation is my own.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

...and morally corrupt.

The foundation is my own.
 
I've never seen you fall into fits of textual maniacal laughter, that's usually reserved for those with a little less emotional self control. Just calling it how I see it.
 
You're saying that morality is your personal opinion, that human value exists only in your mind, and yet you're making moral comparisons between your opinion and the Bibles, based on a foundation that exists only in your mind?

And you don't see the internal contradiction? lol

Much like you think that your logical problem with space/time is one of physics. It's a matter of fact that your end statement invalidated the process you used to prove your end statement.

And you don't see the internal contradiction.

I’m saying my morality is my personal opinion. That can’t be contradictory. You’re pointing to the Bible and justifying slavery.

I trust myself more than an Iron Age book. You dont seem to. Slavery in any form is disgusting in my opinion. You seem to be fine with it under certain circumstances. Again, that is disgusting in my opinion.
 
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I’m saying my morality is my personal opinion. That can’t be contradictory. You’re pointing to the Bible and justifying slavery.

I trust myself more than an Iron Age book. You dont seem to. Slavery in any form is disgusting in my opinion. You seem to be fine with it under certain circumstances. Again, that is disgusting in my opinion.
It's internally inconsistent if you can't find a basis for the belief as an outworking of your atheistic, materialistic philosophy.

And it is incredibly inconsistent to say that its just your opinion and then use that as though it's an external standard to brow beat me and call The Bible...


Lol



Lolololop


"Morally corrupt".

Lol



You literally said human worth is in your imagination, as is morality, so I should question my basis of morality based on that personal opinion foundation for morality.


Lol
 
So....where do you think pretty much every country in the world got their basis for any "moral" laws?

As for Biblical laws being wrong, they aren't. It's the human interpretations that are. There are very good, logical reasons for all of them. Some of them you have to understand the context of why they were put in place, others are pretty universal. Failure of someone to comprehend them does not make them incorrect.

Slavery has been around since the beginning of time in one form or another. I am pretty sure every person on this forum has been or is a party to it whether they believe and/or understand it or not.

Just because a person is homosexual, a murderer, thief, whatever doesn't give them the authority to pronounce that act to be moral. The society as a whole in the US has told us for decades that Biblical morals are wrong. Yet how many of us would want our kids to grow up and be like the Kardashians? Probably none.

We tend to place arbitrary values on the various moral "crimes" and make some more heinous than others. Truth is, premarital sex or any sex outside of marriage, is just as wrong as homosexuality. Sin is sin. There is a reason it was and is against the law of God.
 
It's internally inconsistent if you can't find a basis for the belief as an outworking of your atheistic, materialistic philosophy.

And it is incredibly inconsistent to say that its just your opinion and then use that as though it's an external standard to brow beat me and call The Bible...


Lol



Lolololop


"Morally corrupt".

Lol



You literally said human worth is in your imagination, as is morality, so I should question my basis of morality based on that personal opinion foundation for morality.


Lol

I never said you should question anything. I simply stated I believe your stance on slavery is reprehensible, and so is that of the Bible. How you take that and react is on you. The simple fact that the Bible states one should be executed for blasphemy meanwhile endorsing slavery tells me all I need to know about where it stands with my personal morality and what my view of a decent person should believe. You guys are over here seriously arguing immutability to make sense of it.

If your reaction is continual accusations of internal contradictions on me and emotional outbursts from you, then that is your issue. As someone believing your objective morality comes from some divine creator vs what some mortal’s opinion is, I don’t understand the getting upset. That is simultaneously ironic and disturbing.
 
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I think we should probably stop taking moral cues from a thousand year old text that equivocates the immorality of pre-marital sex and murder, but that's just my own opinion which means absolutely nothing.
 
I've answered that. As a matter of fact, a couple of thousand years of Christian philosophy has answered that. Hume's problem was one of deduction.

You haven't answered that. You've just made some strange allusion to a problem of deduction, which seemingly has no place in this conversation. Hume said morality was a slave to the passions--there's nothing deductive about that. Pretty much the opposite of what you've said here is true.

Christian morality isn't one of deduction. It's one of recognition and perception. Christian morality is based on the attributes of God and the belief that He wrote the moral law on our hearts. So, for us it's a matter of founding what we already know at a basic level in His nature, revelation, creation and command.

So we're back to the is-ought problem again. Round and round we go.

Funny. You haven't once made the argument.

Why should I? You're treating these arguments as if they don't even exist, when in reality they've existed for hundreds of years. I'm not trying to convince you that they're true; only that they exist and you've no grounds for making the claims that you have regarding secular morality without further argumentation.

I've read versions of them and remain unconvinced. I suspect I know why you haven't made the arguments as well as why you don't find them convincing enough to believe them.

Given the ridiculous treatment of Hume's moral philosophy that you've made here, the fact that you don't find any of them convincing makes me think that they may well be correct.

Interestingly, the most convincing critiques of these systems of naturalistic ethics and moral philosophies come from naturalists who end up saying that atheists need to face facts and stop trying to sound like moral realists. (Quite a few of them actually admit to freeloading their daily lives from Christianity, by the way.)

These people who say this would be in the minority, but presumably they aren't atheist divine command theorists so what's your point? Divine command theory must be true because one or two naturalists credit Christianity's influence on our culture?
 
I think we should probably stop taking moral cues from a thousand year old text that equivocates the immorality of pre-marital sex and murder, but that's just my own opinion which means absolutely nothing.

The moral cues of the "good book" would have us raping and pillaging.
 
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I have no doubt that the human race would be stronger if we all followed the Biblical way of living from the beginning.
 
Peace or war....


The quintet was arrested after authorities found 11 hungry, filthy children living in squalid conditions in a makeshift militant training compound in Amalia, Taos County, a remote part of New Mexico, during a raid by local police on Aug. 3, 2018. The children were being trained to commit school shootings, according to court documents. The remains of a three-year-old disabled boy, since identified as the son of defendant Siraj Ibn Wahhaj, were discovered on the property which was filled with weapons. The indictment accused the defendants of kidnapping the boy and transporting him from Georgia to New Mexico. The defendants were previously indicted on weapons and conspiracy charges on Aug. 31, 2018.


Imam Wahhaj used to be a member of the Council on American-Islamic Relations’ (CAIR) national advisory board. He offered an opening prayer at an event called “Jumah at the DNC” at the Democratic National Convention in 2012 and has been called the spiritual adviser of jihad sympathizer and Bernie Sanders supporter Linda Sarsour.

Muslim Terrorists Indicted in New Mexico
 
I think we should probably stop taking moral cues from a thousand year old text that equivocates the immorality of pre-marital sex and murder, but that's just my own opinion which means absolutely nothing.
Not sure which text that would be. The Bible is much older than a thousand years and so is the Quran .
 
You haven't answered that. You've just made some strange allusion to a problem of deduction, which seemingly has no place in this conversation. Hume said morality was a slave to the passions--there's nothing deductive about that. Pretty much the opposite of what you've said here is true.



So we're back to the is-ought problem again. Round and round we go.



Why should I? You're treating these arguments as if they don't even exist, when in reality they've existed for hundreds of years. I'm not trying to convince you that they're true; only that they exist and you've no grounds for making the claims that you have regarding secular morality without further argumentation.



Given the ridiculous treatment of Hume's moral philosophy that you've made here, the fact that you don't find any of them convincing makes me think that they may well be correct.



These people who say this would be in the minority, but presumably they aren't atheist divine command theorists so what's your point? Divine command theory must be true because one or two naturalists credit Christianity's influence on our culture?

I understand Hume's argument as well as Christian morality, and the latter is not affected by the former.

Hume wrote that a person can't form generalized moral prescription based on non-moral specifics (facts). i.e. You can't deduce morals from non-morals. i.e. A person can't get an "ought" from an "is".

As mentioned, Christians do not get "oughts" for "is". We get ought from ought. God created oughts from is.

Christian morality is based in three areas:

God's attributes, as anything God says and does will only be constrained by His attributes and character.
God's sovereignty, as He gets to comand His creation.
God's plan for designing and creating the universe, which is an extension of His sovereignty, as He will command His creation to be fit for the purpose He intended.

So, God created "ought" from His divine "is", much as you would create an "ought" by designing an building an automobile. If it won't start up and drive, it fails the "ought" from its "is" state of broken down.

God, having defined the "ought", which is based on His creation, which is based in His design, which is based in His character, has communicated the "is" as a written law on our hearts, as well as a specific revelation through scripture. We interpret that, getting "oughts" from 'oughts".

And thus, Christianity doesn't fail at Hume's dilemma and Christianity isn't cut off from morality with his guillotine.

You say that, since Christian morals are based in God's attributes, they're not moral. I say you're full of ****.

You say that, since Christian morals are based in God's command/revelation, they're not morals. I say you're full of ****.

You say that Christianity is bound by Hume's dilemma that people (humans) can't formulate "ought" from "is". I say you're full of ****, as Christians get "ought" from "ought" and God is no human.
 
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Anyone ever seen the YouTube video of the Muslim that died in a car wreck and came back? Can’t seem to find it but he’s converted to Christianity because he met God and he told him there is only one God. He’s also converted his whole family.
Is this for real?
 
There's no point to any of these theological debates. No one's mind is ever going to be convinced one way or the other.
 
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There's no point to any of these theological debates. No one's mind is ever going to be convinced one way or the other.

You shut your mouth, Stomp has OC on the ropes - he's flailing and it's only a matter of time before rational thought washes over OC like a warm blanket.
 

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