Islam, is it a religion of peace or war?

[Septic]

We need an actual Muslim POV on this board. It would make for interesting discussions.

I think you'd find that we'd all flick boogers at them too. Its kind of hilarious that Christians get all lathered up thinking that non believers somehow only have it out for them.

 

[McDad]

We need an actual Muslim POV on this board. It would make for interesting discussions.

About the closest we can get is @Persian Vol. But i bet he's too busy in med school to help us out.

 

[Persian Vol]

About the closest we can get is @Persian Vol. But i bet he's too busy in med school to help us out.

I’m actually on spring break, so I am happy to participate in volnation’s lovely Muslim discussions

 

[volsportsfan]

Condemning is judging. Too bad you never read John 3:17.

What do you think happens when a person comes to Christ? They bare good fruit. Their morality kicks in and with a renewed mind they begin to weigh good vs bad, right vs wrong. They want to be apart of the solution to sin, not part of the problem. Jesus said to let your light shine. If I shrink back and compromise on morality, then I do not love my neighbor enough to educate them on morality. I educate / judge / condemn my own kids on morality and truth. Why? Because I love them and want them to be blessed in life. I do not want them mired in the cesspool of sin. One saved by the merciful atonement of Christ understands true love. That true love goes beyond yourself and your family, out into the world, and even to one's enemies. Praise God that He loved me enough to save me from my sin here, in this life, and eternally. How does He save me from the cesspool of sin in this life? By educating me, judging me, and condemning me through His word and through conscience, my own and others. This is why man has laws and law enforcement and judges and juries. We have the moral law of God written on our hearts. Even if the bible were taken away, we have God's will written on our hearts, our own conscience accusing and excusing our lives, and others lives. Should I not judge and condemn the child rapist? Would you dare say I have no right to judge and condemn the child rapist? Everyone in this country, the world over, and all through history has judged and condemned heinous - evil - straight from hell - crime. I will not sit back and not educate, judge, and condemn evil. For your sake, my enemies sake, and my children's sake, I will not idly sit by and let evil reign, God as my helper. God has loved me enough to patiently bring me out of ignorance concerning sin and evil. I will love others enough to do the same unto them, in matters of evil, that has been revealed unto me. And keep my mouth shut in matters that I yet to understand.

 

[Wafflestomper]

I think you'd find that we'd all flick boogers at them too. Its kind of hilarious that Christians get all lathered up thinking that non believers somehow only have it out for them.

Playing the victim is part of their schtick.

 

[Roustabout]

Homosexuality was accepted by Romans, Greeks and all the Mediterranean cultures. Only with the rise of Christianity was it deemed deviant.

I suggest you get your dates and location right.

Homosexuality was accepted by Romans, Greeks and all the Mediterranean cultures. Only with the rise of Christianity was it deemed deviant.

LOL. I wouldn’t expect you “the scholar” to buy that revisionist BS.
Which ancient Hellenistic work describes those cultures as accepting homosexuality?

 

[rjd970]

You've retreated from the ability to moral grandstands after having a moral grandstand. You piped up to call God's morality evil. To claim that its always evil for one person to own another. For god to kill someone for Sabbath breaking etc

Then, when asked where you get your concept of human value that all of these are based on, you retreated to the epistemological copout: "well, people believe what they want to believe".

You don't see the tremendous retreat? You were just condemning the beliefs of others until you realized how baseless your beliefs are.

And what's sad is not caring that you have subscribed to a worldview that forces you to believe what you don't believe and deny what you do believe.

I am moral grandstanding with my own moral beliefs. If you need to have to believe someone else’s to do the same more power to you.

I haven’t retreated from anything. You guys continue to argue your silly immutability nonsense while I can sit over here and say I believe slavery is wrong, no matter what. I’m saying that because I believe it. You guys can’t admit that and need to point to that higher power.

The base of my beliefs is that they are mine. Point to that all powerful God all you want, but at the end of the day you are in the same boat as me.

 

[Roustabout]

Westboro Baptist Church comes pretty damn close....

Any others?
Westboro has been unequivocally rejected and condemned by the consensus of Christians. In addition, Christians have organized protests against them, even blicking their efforts.

Tell me, how many westboro members are there?
How many Muslims are considered radical.

 

[Roustabout]

I am moral grandstanding with my own moral beliefs. If you need to have to believe someone else’s to do the same more power to you.

I haven’t retreated from anything. You guys continue to argue your silly immutability nonsense while I can sit over here and say I believe slavery is wrong, no matter what. I’m saying that because I believe it. You guys can’t admit that and need to point to that higher power.

The base of my beliefs is that they are mine. Point to that all powerful God all you want, but at the end of the day you are in the same boat as me.

The basis of your beliefs is you?

Ok then. Then you saying someone is wrong is the height of arrogance.

 

[Roustabout]

They aren't "real" Christians.

Is it consistent with the tenets of Christianity and it’s central figure?

Does it represent even 1% of the Christian population.

It’s pretty bad when y’all start mocking facts to embrace BS.

 

[Roustabout]

Condemning is judging. Too bad you never read John 3:17.

Are you judging him for judging?

 

[Septic]

Is it consistent with the tenets of Christianity and it’s central figure?

Does it represent even 1% of the Christian population.

It’s pretty bad when y’all start mocking facts to embrace BS.

How do you know if god doesn't "hate ****"? It's an abomination, no? Says so right in the manual.

So to answer your question, yeah it's plausible.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that when a small number of people do shtty things in the name of their religion it's not fair to blame them all?

 

[Orange_Crush]

I am moral grandstanding with my own moral beliefs. If you need to have to believe someone else’s to do the same more power to you.

I haven’t retreated from anything. You guys continue to argue your silly immutability nonsense while I can sit over here and say I believe slavery is wrong, no matter what. I’m saying that because I believe it. You guys can’t admit that and need to point to that higher power.

The base of my beliefs is that they are mine. Point to that all powerful God all you want, but at the end of the day you are in the same boat as me.

This shouldn't have to be repeated so often... To say that a human shouldn't kill a human, or a human shouldn't be killed for working on a particular day of the week, etc, where do you get their absolute inherent worth? What part of your worldview gives us that? I'll repeat, as an atheist, you have time and chance. You have the survival of the fittest. You have humans as primates. You have humans as nothing more than a collection of material, similar to the ant used as a slave by its parasitic hitchhiker.

So, what "ought" in that "is" gives humans inherent, transcendent value that allows you to be an intellectually honest atheist making those statements?

I'll answer. Nothing. You're an intellectual cheater. You deny the truth of God to crown humanity as the center of your worship, yet the further you get from God, the more you lower humanity and remove our worth. Further, the more you move away from the admission of God's existence, the further you get from reason. You're forced to deny what you claim to believe and believe what you claim to deny. As scripture 2000 years ago predicted...

Romans 1:21,22 -- 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools...

 

[Wafflestomper]

Any others?
Westboro has been unequivocally rejected and condemned by the consensus of Christians. In addition, Christians have organized protests against them, even blicking their efforts.

Tell me, how many westboro members are there?
How many Muslims are considered radical.

Weren't you complaining about goalposts being moved very recently? I provided WBC as an example because it was asserted that there were no examples.

Who cares anyway? The point is that just because a majority of Christians today interpret the Bible one way doesn't mean it's correct. 200 years ago the majority of the church may have been fine killing gays, and may have used Leviticus to support this claim.

Restating my point (again): if Leviticus is used as the evidence that God is against homosexual relations then there needs to be an adequate account for why only the punishment for it has changed since the NT. Saying Jesus didn't, or would never, command killing gays seems off if for no other reason than the OT itself states "thou shalt not kill." So if this contradiction can be tolerated in the OT there is no obvious reason why an appeal to Jesus' character or other teachings should sway the discussion at all.

 

[Wafflestomper]

This shouldn't have to be repeated so often... To say that a human shouldn't kill a human, or a human shouldn't be killed for working on a particular day of the week, etc, where do you get their absolute inherent worth? What part of your worldview gives us that? I'll repeat, as an atheist, you have time and chance. You have the survival of the fittest. You have humans as primates. You have humans as nothing more than a collection of material, similar to the ant used as a slave by its parasitic hitchhiker.

So, what "ought" in that "is" gives humans inherent, transcendent value that allows you to be an intellectually honest atheist making those statements?

I'll answer. Nothing. You're an intellectual cheater. You deny the truth of God to crown humanity as the center of your worship, yet the further you get from God, the more you lower humanity and remove our worth. Further, the more you move away from the admission of God's existence, the further you get from reason. You're forced to deny what you claim to believe and believe what you claim to deny. As scripture 2000 years ago predicted...

The claim that humans have to have "absolute inherent worth" for someone to believe they should not be killed seems obviously wrong.

Careful using the is-ought problem. Someone might expose the flaws in your system of morals with it...

 

[Orange_Crush]

The claim that humans have to have "absolute inherent worth" for someone to believe they should not be killed seems obviously wrong.

Careful using the is-ought problem. Someone might expose the flaws in your system of morals with it...

If they want to be intellectually consistent, they need to. But alas...

And for the record, your history of intellectual dishonesty in discourse here has been repeatedly noted. The fact that anyone even responds to you at this point is a grace.

 

[Roustabout]

How do you know if god doesn't "hate ****"? It's an abomination, no? Says so right in the manual.

So to answer your question, yeah it's plausible.

Just to be clear, are you suggesting that when a small number of people do shtty things in the name of their religion it's not fair to blame them all?

You should NEVER judge a philosophy by its abuse.
Does the mountain of commentary on this forum by myself and others just go in one of your ears and out the other?

You are the typical antagonist. Make a bad argument. Have someone explain the error in your reasoning. Show up down the road making the same claim. Rinse, repeat.

 

[Roustabout]

Weren't you complaining about goalposts being moved very recently? I provided WBC as an example because it was asserted that there were no examples.

Who cares anyway? The point is that just because a majority of Christians today interpret the Bible one way doesn't mean it's correct. 200 years ago the majority of the church may have been fine killing gays, and may have used Leviticus to support this claim.

Restating my point (again): if Leviticus is used as the evidence that God is against homosexual relations then there needs to be an adequate account for why only the punishment for it has changed since the NT. Saying Jesus didn't, or would never, command killing gays seems off if for no other reason than the OT itself states "thou shalt not kill." So if this contradiction can be tolerated in the OT there is no obvious reason why an appeal to Jesus' character or other teachings should sway the discussion at all.

That wasn’t my response. Take it up with them. It’s pretty ****ing pathetic that when someone ask for examples the best they can come up with is “Westboro!!!” That ought to tell you something there. It’s amusing to watch y’all falling all over yourself to defend a religious ideology that is without question a genuine cancer on our globe, while at the same time tearing down Christ.

 

[Roustabout]

Weren't you complaining about goalposts being moved very recently? I provided WBC as an example because it was asserted that there were no examples.

Who cares anyway? The point is that just because a majority of Christians today interpret the Bible one way doesn't mean it's correct. 200 years ago the majority of the church may have been fine killing gays, and may have used Leviticus to support this claim.

Restating my point (again): if Leviticus is used as the evidence that God is against homosexual relations then there needs to be an adequate account for why only the punishment for it has changed since the NT. Saying Jesus didn't, or would never, command killing gays seems off if for no other reason than the OT itself states "thou shalt not kill." So if this contradiction can be tolerated in the OT there is no obvious reason why an appeal to Jesus' character or other teachings should sway the discussion at all.

It’s called basic reading comprehension.
The OT was NEVER used as a means of legal regulation in Christianity in any time during its history. Never!! It wasn’t advocated by Jesus, Paul Peter or the apostles. It wasn’t advocated by the early church fathers.

 

[SamRebel35]

Challenge issued. Without bringing up any other religions or without saying the word "Muslim", is Islam a religion of peace and why?

 

[MercyPercy]

I am moral grandstanding with my own moral beliefs. If you need to have to believe someone else’s to do the same more power to you.

I haven’t retreated from anything. You guys continue to argue your silly immutability nonsense while I can sit over here and say I believe slavery is wrong, no matter what. I’m saying that because I believe it. You guys can’t admit that and need to point to that higher power.

The base of my beliefs is that they are mine. Point to that all powerful God all you want, but at the end of the day you are in the same boat as me.

They need the bible to tell them murder, stealing and rape is wrong. Well, unless god does the murdering. But I digress. Apparently, they would all be out a rapin', murderin' and stealin' without the good book.

 

[Orange_Crush]

They need the bible to tell them murder, stealing and rape is wrong. Well, unless god does the murdering. But I digress. Apparently, they would all be out a rapin', murderin' and stealin' without the good book.

That's an ignorant and misinformed statement. Romans 2 speaks to this and waffle's critique of is/ought in Christian doctrine.

 

[McDad]

I’m actually on spring break, so I am happy to participate in volnation’s lovely Muslim discussions

Here you go, @Weezer.
Eta...never mind. This thread has morphed into a discussion of Christian theology.

@Persian Vol, hope you're doing well. Pop in from time to time and update us on your matriculation.

 

[Orange_Crush]

Placeholder post:

"The Art of The Argument: Western Civilization's Last Stand" by Stefan Molyneux pg 70.

 

[rjd970]

The basis of your beliefs is you?

Ok then. Then you saying someone is wrong is the height of arrogance.

Yes, the basis is me. I don’t ask anyone to agree with it either.

And Baloney. It’s no different than you, you just don’t want to admit it.