Israel invades Lebanon.

[WA_Vol]

The question is not WHAT you choose but why there must be a choice in the first place. Why must the radicals seek the elimination of Israel? Do you think if they were allowed to do it then the world turns into a magical, happy place? Come on man, they will never stop until they are dealt with. They do not believe in diplomacy. Israel scares the crap out of the ME and I think we should support them. Tell those radicals to take some reading comprehension lessons along with their Quran lessons and we might get somewhere.

U.S. has already chosen sides, by giving millions and millions to Israel. Obviously the U.S. chose them to be an ally. The question is whether or not that is a good choice. China supplies Iran who supplies Hezbollah who attacks Israel. Almost all scenarios the govt has studied of a war wtth China the U.S. loses because of their sheer numbers. This is not so simple as you try to make it. They are some silent parties involved.

 

[therealUT]

U.S. has already chosen sides, by giving millions and millions to Israel. Obviously the U.S. chose them to be an ally. The question is whether or not that is a good choice. China supplies Iran who supplies Hezbollah who attacks Israel. Almost all scenarios the govt has studied of a war wtth China the U.S. loses because of their sheer numbers. This is not so simple as you try to make it. They are some silent parties involved.

Which scenarios are these??? Because it sounds to me like that came straight out of your *ss.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Which scenarios are these??? Because it sounds to me like that came straight out of your *ss.

Kinda what I was thinking, when you kill ratio is 30 to 1 you really do not have to worry about it...........

:banghead: :blink:

 

[OWB]

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Yeah that whole 15% we get from them!

 

[therealUT]

Thomas Sowell eloquently and articulately counters peace niks.

Jewish World Review July 21, 2006 / 25 Tamuz, 5766

Thomas Sowell

Pacifists versus peace

One of the many failings of our educational system is that it sends out into the world people who cannot tell rhetoric from reality. They have learned no systematic way to analyze ideas, derive their implications and test those implications against hard facts.


"Peace" movements are among those who take advantage of this widespread inability to see beyond rhetoric to realities. Few people even seem interested in the actual track record of so-called "peace" movements — that is, whether such movements actually produce peace or war.


Take the Middle East. People are calling for a cease-fire in the interests of peace. But there have been more cease-fires in the Middle East than anywhere else. If cease-fires actually promoted peace, the Middle East would be the most peaceful region on the face of the earth instead of the most violent.

There was a time when it would have been suicidal to threaten, much less attack, a nation with much stronger military power because one of the dangers to the attacker would be the prospect of being annihilated.


"World opinion," the U.N. and "peace movements" have eliminated that deterrent. An aggressor today knows that if his aggression fails, he will still be protected from the full retaliatory power and fury of those he attacked because there will be hand-wringers demanding a cease fire, negotiations and concessions.

British Labor Party Members of Parliament voted consistently against military spending and British college students publicly pledged never to fight for their country. If "peace" movements brought peace, there would never have been World War II.


Not only did that war lead to tens of millions of deaths, it came dangerously close to a crushing victory for the Nazis in Europe and the Japanese empire in Asia. And we now know that the United States was on Hitler's timetable after that.


For the first two years of that war, the Western democracies lost virtually every battle, all over the world, because pre-war "peace" movements had left them with inadequate military equipment and much of it obsolete. The Nazis and the Japanese knew that. That is why they launched the war.


"Peace" movements don't bring peace but war.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

So say we just lock the door and let the Arabs, Palestinians, Israelis, and all other parties with a beef, battle it out.
When that fight's over, assuming we're all still around. Would there then be peace in the middle east? Or would it just be yet another bloody chapter in the 3000 year spitting contest.

 

[therealUT]

I love how people always refer to the length of the bitterness between the Arabs and the Israeli's. Yet, actually battles between the two are few and far between in the annals of history.

One one find more wars between the Japanese and Chinese, English and French, Irish and English, etc. in military history.

To answer you question though, let Israel deal a severe enough beating to the Persians (Hezbollah) and the Palestinians, and the fighting would end.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

To answer you question though, let Israel deal a severe enough beating to the Persians (Hezbollah) and the Palestinians, and the fighting would end.

Iran and Syria are just gonna sit there and let Israel pound Hizbollah at will?

 

[therealUT]

Iran and Syria are just gonna sit there and let Israel pound Hizbollah at will?

Well, I mentioned Persians for a reason (as Persians are persons from Iran.) Hezbollah is an Iranian para-military group. So, by proxy, Israel is currently waging war against Iran. Syria will not step in without the backing of Iran (the Syrian army is a joke) and Iran knows that if they step in to overtly offer military aid, then US forces, along with Hel Aziz (the Israeli Air Corps,) will strike at the heart the Iran. It is for this reason that Iran's PM sent a letter to Chancellor Merckel of Germany requesting German help in eliminating the "Jewish problem."

 

[therealUT]

Further, because Isreal apparently has corrected for this mentality:

There was a time when it would have been suicidal to threaten, much less attack, a nation with much stronger military power because one of the dangers to the attacker would be the prospect of being annihilated.


"World opinion," the U.N. and "peace movements" have eliminated that deterrent. An aggressor today knows that if his aggression fails, he will still be protected from the full retaliatory power and fury of those he attacked because there will be hand-wringers demanding a cease fire, negotiations and concessions.

Syria and Iran now fear extinction if they involve themselves.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

Well, I mentioned Persians for a reason (as Persians are persons from Iran.) Hezbollah is an Iranian para-military group. So, by proxy, Israel is currently waging war against Iran. Syria will not step in without the backing of Iran (the Syrian army is a joke) and Iran knows that if they step in to overtly offer military aid, then US forces, along with Hel Aziz (the Israeli Air Corps,) will strike at the heart the Iran. It is for this reason that Iran's PM sent a letter to Chancellor Merckel of Germany requesting German help in eliminating the "Jewish problem."

My point regarded letting them fight it out amongst themselves.
I made no mention of us intervening on any party's behalf.
If Israel is certain it can swat all threats aside if left to it's own devices,
then I'm reluctantly willing to say 'OK give it a try'.
But don't come telling me that Israel is so sure of itself only because of an American hammer that's waiting in the wings.
That I got a problem with.

 

[therealUT]

As long as the world stage allows Israel full use of its arsenal, then we will not have to step in. However, if we are going to urge Israel to fight a contained war, in which Iran would not be deterred from entering, then I feel we are obliged to provide military aid in that contingency.

Also, the fact that we have an all-volunteer military, should keep you from having a problem with it.

 

[orange+white=heaven]

Also, the fact that we have an all-volunteer military, should keep you from having a problem with it.

It's the weekend and I'm headed out. So I'll ignore that little arrow. :matrix:

I enjoyed it. Talk to you Monday.....

 

[therealUT]

The operations of Israel in Gaza and Lebanon are in the interest of people of Arab countries and the international community.

Ahmed Al-Jallarah, Editor-in-Chief Arab Times

I would say that the Middle East is changing before our very eyes, and that our operations there are working.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

I would say that the Middle East is changing before our very eyes, and that our operations there are working.

I know Cspindizzy vehemently disagrees with me, but the Middle East and reconstruction Europe do have some similarities.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

The U.S. should not only be supporting Israel on this conflict but helping militarily. Imagine if we park some of our warships off the coast and provided even better air superiority and better weapons and were there showing force.

1 of 2 things is going to happen.

1. Iran and Syria are going to get pissed off and decide to enter the conflict and get their asses handed to them on a silver platter since they are out manned and out gunned 10 to 1. I mean how are they going to be the #1 and #4 largest armies in the world. Lets end this destructive conflict in this region once and for all by destroying both countries and it's government. The destroy part doesn't mean civilians, rather those who decided to fight us.

2. Iran and Syria get scared and back off and allow the U.S. and Israel to destroy Hezbolla once and for all and then Israel and the U.S. can say "Who's next? Now clean up your act and get rid of your problem or else were going to do it for you and your not going to like the end result"

Furthermore we also discussd a more likely scenario and one that might happen and that is to create a 20 mile buffer zone between Israel and Lebanon. No Israeli and no Lebanese are allowed to go into this 20 mile stretch. Only NATO forces are there and they are there perminently. The same with GAZA. The U.N. would tell the Lebanese army to move in and surround the area where Hezzobalh is and clear out the problem.

I don't know something inside my gut keeps saying that it's time for an all out war on any and all countries who back terrorism and send a clear messege that talk time and diplomacy is over and now we have the chess pieces in place and we can move in at anytime.

It's eventually going to come to this folks. This is a conflict which will stay in one place, but will spread. Why not get it over with now?

 

[CSpindizzy]

We are dependent on their oil because we can't drill in two main oil reserves of the world, namely the Gulf of Mexico and Alaska.

Six years into the GWB administration why is that? ANWR does not have enough to matter. And as the same issue goes with Iran goes with us. We can drill oil all day long but it is a refinery capacity that is our true problem.

 

[therealUT]

Six years into the GWB administration why is that? ANWR does not have enough to matter. And as the same issue goes with Iran goes with us. We can drill oil all day long but it is a refinery capacity that is our true problem.

I would state that it is not so much our refining capacity as it is the regulations on our refineries. Every state in the union requires a different mix of gasoline, on top of that, there are different mixes regulated, by law, for the winter and the summer. This requires oil companies to shut down their refineries for long periods of time, while they wait until the current supply in the holding tanks has been used and sold.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I would say that the Middle East is changing before our very eyes, and that our operations there are working.

How do you figure? I see the exact opposite. We get a democratic government going in Lebanon and do not give it a chance. We are seen as the guy holding the pit bull on a leash letting it tear into Lebanon. Now those who actually were moderate and supportive of us are being bombed out and now see the US as doing little to protect them and everything to protect Israel. We have just undone everything W worked for these past few years. The US is now seen as purely siding with Israel.

Israel should take note of what is going on in Iraq. It's easy to fight organized armies but guerilla actions can go on endlessly. And bombing civilian areas incessantly in Lebanon do little to win the hearts and minds of the people. Bush wants democracy and for the region to allign with Western governments but then kills one that we helped push for. Not smart.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I would state that it is not so much our refining capacity as it is the regulations on our refineries. Every state in the union requires a different mix of gasoline, on top of that, there are different mixes regulated, by law, for the winter and the summer. This requires oil companies to shut down their refineries for long periods of time, while they wait until the current supply in the holding tanks has been used and sold.

Who controls that? The federal government with the Clean Air Act. With the GOP in control over the two bodies who can alter that, what is the excuse preventing them from doing something? All that has to be done is a change in this policy. Change CAFE standards. Change fuel additive regulations. Create more refineries. God knows we've given the oil companies enough money to create refineries in every state. While some on the Right still choose to blame liberals, Democrats, environmentalists, etc. all you have to blame is a guy named W and his party in control of Congress.

 

[therealUT]

Israel should take note of what is going on in Iraq. It's easy to fight organized armies but guerilla actions can go on endlessly. And bombing civilian areas incessantly in Lebanon do little to win the hearts and minds of the people. Bush wants democracy and for the region to allign with Western governments but then kills one that we helped push for. Not smart.

Israel does not fight with the ROE that US forces are hamstrung by. Israel is in no way concerned with winning 'hearts and minds,' their people understand that you fight wars to win total victory. They will not pussy foot their way into a long guerilla campaign in which their superior military tactics and technology are of no use to them, and they will win the war.

As for the perception of us in the middle east? If this had happened five or six years ago, the Arab powers that be would be condemning Israel...they are not. Besides Syria and Iran, the other countries that are voicing their opinions are stating that Hezbollah and Hamas brought this on Lebanon. Also, just because a country is a democracy does not automatically make it a good country. Nazi Germany was a democracy...

 

[therealUT]

Who controls that? The federal government with the Clean Air Act. With the GOP in control over the two bodies who can alter that, what is the excuse preventing them from doing something? All that has to be done is a change in this policy. Change CAFE standards. Change fuel additive regulations. Create more refineries. God knows we've given the oil companies enough money to create refineries in every state. While some on the Right still choose to blame liberals, Democrats, environmentalists, etc. all you have to blame is a guy named W and his party in control of Congress.

I am all for Congress getting rid of the environmental legislation.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I know Cspindizzy vehemently disagrees with me, but the Middle East and reconstruction Europe do have some similarities.

Considering Europe was First World before we bombed the daylights out of it and the Middle East is still Third World, you have two different economic mindsets to begin with. People in Europe wanted their fancy cars, factory or clerical jobs, dresses and suits, and the middle class lifestyle back. The Middle East? Most of Iraq is the same as it has been for decades. People aren't begging for complete return to the way it was. They have that already. Their culture has always been that decadence from the West would corrupt their society. Since Saddam fell we see a rise in drugs, crime, prostitution, etc. in sectors that never saw this. So in those areas, the people see us as taking them down a negative path.

You can attempt to compare post-WWII Europe to the situation in Iraq and there just are not that many major similarities.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I am all for Congress getting rid of the environmental legislation.

What's stopping them? If they don't do something now, there could be a chance after January their ability will be hindered greatly.