Israel invades Lebanon.

[therealUT]

What's stopping them? If they don't do something now, there could be a chance after January their ability will be hindered greatly.

They are, like all politicians, more concerned with keeping their jobs than in doing what they feel is best for the country, and they understand that repealing an act so named, "The Clean Air Act," or "Protect Our Waterways Act," is political suicide.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Israel does not fight with the ROE that US forces are hamstrung by. Israel is in no way concerned with winning 'hearts and minds,' their people understand that you fight wars to win total victory. They will not pussy foot their way into a long guerilla campaign in which their superior military tactics and technology are of no use to them, and they will win the war.

As for the perception of us in the middle east? If this had happened five or six years ago, the Arab powers that be would be condemning Israel...they are not. Besides Syria and Iran, the other countries that are voicing their opinions are stating that Hezbollah and Hamas brought this on Lebanon. Also, just because a country is a democracy does not automatically make it a good country. Nazi Germany was a democracy...

But the US is supporting this move fully. Keep in mind that OUR interest is to bring a mindset supportive of the West. This whole supporting move on our part of Israel unravels what we've worked to achieve. You are now beginning to notice that supporting all out war and total victory by Israel's definition is not compatible with our own goals.

Arab powers ARE condemning Israel. They have repeatedly done so. Just because some like Jordan have publicly said one thing does not matter when the people themselves are what matters. Look at Iraq. What does it matter that the government is a democracy when the people are in revolt? Who cares essentially what al-Maliki says? Well when HE won't even come out and condemn Hezbollah when he is our closest ally, what can you count on?

Nazi Germany came to exist THROUGH democracy. That democracy lasted oh about a year at most before the Reichstag signed over everything to Hitler through the Enabling Acts and other powers like that. Nazi Germany was a autocratic fascist state that managed to use democracy as a means to achieve power through the vote. Once achieved, they erased democracy as smoothly and quickly as possible.

 

[CSpindizzy]

They are, like all politicians, more concerned with keeping their jobs than in doing what they feel is best for the country, and they understand that repealing an act so named, "The Clean Air Act," or "Protect Our Waterways Act," is political suicide.

Who said repeal? You can reword and alter it. And what happened to the GOP majority? Political capital? The bully pulpit? I thought the majority of the US supported these guys. Are you telling me that we have environmentalists as a majority now?

CAFE standards are not political suicide. Actually a majority of people support that. They will NOT support that because it would hurt automakers and oil companies. See a pattern here? Who has more pull with Congress?

 

[GVF]

So say we just lock the door and let the Arabs, Palestinians, Israelis, and all other parties with a beef, battle it out.
When that fight's over, assuming we're all still around. Would there then be peace in the middle east? Or would it just be yet another bloody chapter in the 3000 year spitting contest.

The liberal mindset can use a dose of prophetic accuracy in this matter. The Jews first rejected their own blood. Then the Gentiles. Instead they crucified Him. God did curse these nations of people to strife amongst them for all time. Biblicall, there will never be peace in the region. Have you ever known there to be true peace in the region. We're wasting our time. Yes, it is nothing more than a political and economic battle. One in which we should kick the media out, and get down to the actual fighting and end this thing. We haven't fought like REAL Americans since Korea.

 

[therealUT]

But the US is supporting this move fully. Keep in mind that OUR interest is to bring a mindset supportive of the West. This whole supporting move on our part of Israel unravels what we've worked to achieve. You are now beginning to notice that supporting all out war and total victory by Israel's definition is not compatible with our own goals.

Arab powers ARE condemning Israel. They have repeatedly done so. Just because some like Jordan have publicly said one thing does not matter when the people themselves are what matters. Look at Iraq. What does it matter that the government is a democracy when the people are in revolt? Who cares essentially what al-Maliki says? Well when HE won't even come out and condemn Hezbollah when he is our closest ally, what can you count on?

Nazi Germany came to exist THROUGH democracy. That democracy lasted oh about a year at most before the Reichstag signed over everything to Hitler through the Enabling Acts and other powers like that. Nazi Germany was a autocratic fascist state that managed to use democracy as a means to achieve power through the vote. Once achieved, they erased democracy as smoothly and quickly as possible.

Kofi Annan is not an Arab power. King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and King Abdullah II of Jordan are very much Arab powers, both have condemned Hezbollah and made it clear that Israel has the right to remove Hezbollah from their borders. Also, I am not concerned about what al-Maliki says. If I was in his position, I would not come out and condemn Hezbollah either while my country was rife with Iranian militants already disturbing the process of setting up the government.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Kofi Annan is not an Arab power. King Abdullah of Saudi Arabia and King Abdullah II of Jordan are very much Arab powers, both have condemned Hezbollah and made it clear that Israel has the right to remove Hezbollah from their borders. Also, I am not concerned about what al-Maliki says. If I was in his position, I would not come out and condemn Hezbollah either while my country was rife with Iranian militants already disturbing the process of setting up the government.

Did I mention Kofi? As for the other two, they are my point. It does not matter what the leaders of these countries say. THEY do not cross borders and fight. THEY do not fight at all. Because their cozy lifestyles are supported by Western cash, it is their best interests to give lipservice and do nothing more.

As for al-Maliki's comments, I guess it's ok for him to be a coward instead of taking a lead in condeming violence. Great stand for a new leader. Actually there are greater concerns of Sunni militants over Iranian ones. Had we secured the border and taken the toys away from the militias we wouldn't have had this problem. Another strategery problem chalked up to the leadership....

 

[therealUT]

Did I mention Kofi? As for the other two, they are my point. It does not matter what the leaders of these countries say. THEY do not cross borders and fight. THEY do not fight at all. Because their cozy lifestyles are supported by Western cash, it is their best interests to give lipservice and do nothing more.

As for al-Maliki's comments, I guess it's ok for him to be a coward instead of taking a lead in condeming violence. Great stand for a new leader. Actually there are greater concerns of Sunni militants over Iranian ones. Had we secured the border and taken the toys away from the militias we wouldn't have had this problem. Another strategery problem chalked up to the leadership....

No, the greater concern is from the Iranian, Syrian, and Chechnyan militants. I know this as a fact. True, we could have secured the border first, and then fought through to the interior of the country, sounds pretty tactically inefficient if you ask me. I would state that the war plan, by Tommy Franks, was pure genius, even more so considering the fact that he had to adapt it at the last minute to deal with the fact that the Turks were not going to allow our 4th ID to come in from the north. However, that technicality always gets lost among the details.

In war, there are always going to be new ways that the enemy is going to try to continue to reinforce and resupply themselves, regardless of what kind of cordon you set up. There is always an underground in every war. However, most populations will tire of the ceaseless bombardment and eventually begin to give up those in the underground, in an effort to relax the stress of constant bombardment. That stress does not exist in Iraq right now, therefore, we have a dirth of intelligence coming from the streets. Basically, the people are more afraid of the outside militants than they are of US force, therefore, they remain quiet about what is actually happening.

 

[CSpindizzy]

No, the greater concern is from the Iranian, Syrian, and Chechnyan militants. I know this as a fact. True, we could have secured the border first, and then fought through to the interior of the country, sounds pretty tactically inefficient if you ask me. I would state that the war plan, by Tommy Franks, was pure genius, even more so considering the fact that he had to adapt it at the last minute to deal with the fact that the Turks were not going to allow our 4th ID to come in from the north. However, that technicality always gets lost among the details.

In war, there are always going to be new ways that the enemy is going to try to continue to reinforce and resupply themselves, regardless of what kind of cordon you set up. There is always an underground in every war. However, most populations will tire of the ceaseless bombardment and eventually begin to give up those in the underground, in an effort to relax the stress of constant bombardment. That stress does not exist in Iraq right now, therefore, we have a dirth of intelligence coming from the streets. Basically, the people are more afraid of the outside militants than they are of US force, therefore, they remain quiet about what is actually happening.

You know this as a fact? I guess we know opposing facts. Pure genius does not leave weapons scattered around and freely available to militias. Pure genius does not allow for open borders for every pissed off Muslim can cross witha gun and shoot us. Pure genius does not let those militias keep their weapons and remain a functioning part of the military and government. Pure genius is not listening to the commanders and experts who called for more troops become suppressed.

But we can get lost in the 'good and bad' and who allegedly knows more than the other. We see the results and history and events will prove the effort right or wrong.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

You know this as a fact? I guess we know opposing facts. Pure genius does not leave weapons scattered around and freely available to militias. Pure genius does not allow for open borders for every pissed off Muslim can cross witha gun and shoot us. Pure genius does not let those militias keep their weapons and remain a functioning part of the military and government. Pure genius is not listening to the commanders and experts who called for more troops become suppressed.

Imagine the military force (manpower and vehicles), and logistical supplies needed to accomplish pure genius as you describe.

La Grand Armee invading Russia.

 

[therealUT]

You know this as a fact? I guess we know opposing facts. Pure genius does not leave weapons scattered around and freely available to militias. Pure genius does not allow for open borders for every pissed off Muslim can cross witha gun and shoot us. Pure genius does not let those militias keep their weapons and remain a functioning part of the military and government. Pure genius is not listening to the commanders and experts who called for more troops become suppressed.

But we can get lost in the 'good and bad' and who allegedly knows more than the other. We see the results and history and events will prove the effort right or wrong.

Maybe you should have planned the invasion of Iraq, with all your infinite knowledge of military science and art...However, I will gladly accept General Franks plan as truly genius, and one of the more awe inspiring military movements throughout history. Of course, you would probably fault IKE's plan for the invasion of Europe solely because Market-Garden failed.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Of course, you would probably fault IKE's plan for the invasion of Europe solely because Market-Garden failed.

You may argue many things against IKE but letting Russia take the brunt of the fighting in Europe was pure genius! :air_kiss:

 

[therealUT]

You may argue many things against IKE but letting Russia take the brunt of the fighting in Europe was pure genius! :air_kiss:

I think IKE did a marvelous job, however, was that decision IKE's or was that the result of talks between Churchill, FDR, and Stalin?

 

[OrangeEmpire]

IKE pulled back going after Berlin........nasty stuff...............

 

[therealUT]

IKE pulled back going after Berlin........nasty stuff...............

I do enjoy how Russia ridded Berlin of its insurgency, the Wolfpack, by just leveling Berlin, ala Israel 2006.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Maybe you should have planned the invasion of Iraq, with all your infinite knowledge of military science and art...However, I will gladly accept General Franks plan as truly genius, and one of the more awe inspiring military movements throughout history. Of course, you would probably fault IKE's plan for the invasion of Europe solely because Market-Garden failed.

You're truly a comedian. How you can say this is comparable is beyond me. You few are just sold on the fact this is somehow related to WWII. Clearly you only look at this from a military perspective and cannot see anything beyond that. Again, after WWII we basically disarmed Japan and Germany and took their toys away. We went in fully committed and took away the means to make war.

In a completely different arena in Iraq, we blazed through Iraq prepared to fight an actual army. We had no concept that they for the most part melted away back into society before we even went in. There were a few units still committed but faced with overbearing power or encirclement, they collapsed. The ones that melted back in either went home to be with families or actually chose to lay low and collect what they could for an insurgency.

If Franks plan was genius, he sure did forget some of the basic tenets of warfare that even other top commanders have faulted him and the Pentagon for. I guess those commanders who came out to criticise this and the ones who were replaced, shifted around, or just released out were wrong over Franks genius?

What did his genius give us? Open borders. Armed militias. Open markets for weapons for anyone caring to pick them up and fight. Complete anihilation of a standing army that could have easily been used to secure the nation now. Instead we have to train a new one filled with poor, incompetent types and insurgents infiltrating left and right.

I love it how people like you wear patriotism on your sleeve and anyone who disagrees is wrong, know-it-all, etc. I've said before that there are stories fitting all sides. I can go get a long list of soldiers who don't paint a rosy picture just as I can just the opposite. But somehow you like to jump on my case as if you'r completely right and I am completely wrong. I've seen probably more than you have of the situation and have a wider understanding of what's going on. I've even said some areas are great. But I am not going to sit here and say that everything we did was perfect and will always be that way. We've made some crucial mistakes. Mistakes are always going to happen. But when the experts who are paid to analyze and plan are overriden by a group of politicians for their own gain, THAT is a major fault in the system. THAT is one I will speak out against over and over again.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I do enjoy how Russia ridded Berlin of its insurgency, the Wolfpack, by just leveling Berlin, ala Israel 2006.

So I guess Israel thinks most Lebanese including the Christians there are the equivalent of Nazis? I'd figure all of the precision weapons we've been selling them over the years would have been used instead of careless wiping out of civilian areas. if this is Israel's attitude, just go in and wipe them out completely. Why toy with them?

 

[therealUT]

I love it how people like you wear patriotism on your sleeve and anyone who disagrees is wrong, know-it-all, etc. I've said before that there are stories fitting all sides. I can go get a long list of soldiers who don't paint a rosy picture just as I can just the opposite. But somehow you like to jump on my case as if you'r completely right and I am completely wrong. I've seen probably more than you have of the situation and have a wider understanding of what's going on. I've even said some areas are great. But I am not going to sit here and say that everything we did was perfect and will always be that way. We've made some crucial mistakes. Mistakes are always going to happen. But when the experts who are paid to analyze and plan are overriden by a group of politicians for their own gain, THAT is a major fault in the system. THAT is one I will speak out against over and over again.

I did not ever say that mistakes did not happen. In fact, I have stated the mistakes that I believe have been made. However, that in no way undermines the plan and the strategy employed. The Pentagon, out of fear of public perception, emplaced very hampering ROE, which has led to the current situation in Iraq. However, you desire to wholeheartedly rip apart the operation in Iraq. I will not do so.

 

[therealUT]

So I guess Israel thinks most Lebanese including the Christians there are the equivalent of Nazis? I'd figure all of the precision weapons we've been selling them over the years would have been used instead of careless wiping out of civilian areas. if this is Israel's attitude, just go in and wipe them out completely. Why toy with them?

Israel is using precision weapons and Hezbollah is fighting from residential areas. And no, Israel does not feel most Lebanese are the equivalent of Nazis. The Israeli's are targeting Hezbollah strongholds, i.e. southern Lebanon and south Beirut. The civilians that live in those areas have lived with Hezbollah for years and most of them are highly supportive of the para military group. So, those civilians, I feel very little compassion for.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Israel is using precision weapons and Hezbollah is fighting from residential areas. And no, Israel does not feel most Lebanese are the equivalent of Nazis. The Israeli's are targeting Hezbollah strongholds, i.e. southern Lebanon and south Beirut. The civilians that live in those areas have lived with Hezbollah for years and most of them are highly supportive of the para military group. So, those civilians, I feel very little compassion for.

Yeah Osama and you feel the same way about civilians. Good to know someone with a gun cares less about civilians. Banastre Tarleton felt the same way as well. So did Heidrich. And the list goes on. I guess just because a terrorist lives next door to you we should blow your neighborhood up?

And actually they've hit areas all over Lebanon. They're not limited to the Hezbollah strongholds of south Lebanon.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I did not ever say that mistakes did not happen. In fact, I have stated the mistakes that I believe have been made. However, that in no way undermines the plan and the strategy employed. The Pentagon, out of fear of public perception, emplaced very hampering ROE, which has led to the current situation in Iraq. However, you desire to wholeheartedly rip apart the operation in Iraq. I will not do so.

So you are having it both ways. What is so wonderful about the operation? Let's go from beginning to end...if there is one.

 

[therealUT]

So you are having it both ways. What is so wonderful about the operation? Let's go from beginning to end...if there is one.

I am not going to be your history teacher.

 

[allvol123]

Yeah Osama and you feel the same way about civilians. Good to know someone with a gun cares less about civilians. Banastre Tarleton felt the same way as well. So did Heidrich. And the list goes on. I guess just because a terrorist lives next door to you we should blow your neighborhood up?

And actually they've hit areas all over Lebanon. They're not limited to the Hezbollah strongholds of south Lebanon.

And Hezbollah has launched thousands of rockets into Israel blindly. So what is your point, it is war, that's what war is, people die. Unfortunately, even innocent bystanders die, but it is not a reason to stop fighting for the protection of your country.

 

[therealUT]

Yeah Osama and you feel the same way about civilians. Good to know someone with a gun cares less about civilians. Banastre Tarleton felt the same way as well. So did Heidrich. And the list goes on. I guess just because a terrorist lives next door to you we should blow your neighborhood up?

And actually they've hit areas all over Lebanon. They're not limited to the Hezbollah strongholds of south Lebanon.

Six years after a treaty which mandated that my country get rid of the said terrorist group? Yes! Further, if I was providing aid and comfort to that group? Yes.

You could have added the list concerning civilian casualties, the following names: Sherman, Grant, Pershing, Eisenhower, Patton, MacArthur, Halsey, and Truman.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I am not going to be your history teacher.

In other words, you cannot back up your position?

 

[CSpindizzy]

And Hezbollah has launched thousands of rockets into Israel blindly. So what is your point, it is war, that's what war is, people die. Unfortunately, even innocent bystanders die, but it is not a reason to stop fighting for the protection of your country.

Protection of the country? They're wiping out a country because of two soldiers. if this were about the soldiers, pull an Entebbe type raid and get them back. Bombing towns is not a great way to create a peaceful neighbor. For every innocent dead in Lebanon, Israel creates about 20 new members of Hezbollah to fight against them. What's better?