Israel invades Lebanon.

#176
#176
Rasputin_Vol said:
So what stopped them from wiping the floor with them in 2006?

Contrary to popular belief, the Israelis of 2023 are not the same from 1967. And the Israelis had more than what they bargained for dealing with Hezbollah.
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We did.
 
#180
#180
Orangeslice13 said:
We’re still in the way.
Without the US there would be a lot fewer enemies of Israel and Israel would be a lot bigger
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Without the US at what point in time? We're one of the backers of their creation and to put it mildly we helped them gain their military prowess. I suppose that's bought us a little bit of influence.
 
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#181
#181
Rasputin_Vol said:
So what stopped them from wiping the floor with them in 2006?

Contrary to popular belief, the Israelis of 2023 are not the same from 1967. And the Israelis had more than what they bargained for dealing with Hezbollah.
Click to expand...

If Israel was weak, they wouldn’t exist. How do you justify your hatred of Israel when compared to “Palestine”?

Only one of those two has both Jews and Arabs coexisting, serving on the same Supreme Court, serving in the same government, etc.

The other is worse than an apartheid state. It’s an actual genocide where any jew who enters will be murdered
 
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#182
#182
Vol8188 said:
If Israel was weak, they wouldn’t exist. How do you justify your hatred of Israel when compared to “Palestine”?

Only one of those two has both Jews and Arabs coexisting, serving on the same Supreme Court, serving in the same government, etc.

The other is worse than an apartheid state. It’s an actual genocide where any jew who enters will be murdered
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Go back about 12-15 years ago in my post history. My opinion of the Israeli-Palestinian situation has evolved over time. With more information, I started to see the flaws in American foreign policy and in our relation with these foreign proxies. Isreal is a proxy. Ukraine is a proxy. Taiwan is a proxy. Kosovo is a proxy. My focus is on getting America to worry about America and get our own country put back together and protecting our own borders. Let the world sort out their own battles and leave us out of it.

Or as one of my favorite posters recently stated:

AM64 said:
Just put a fence up and let the Middle Easterners fight it out.
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#183
#183
Rasputin_Vol said:
Go back about 12-15 years ago in my post history. My opinion of the Israeli-Palestinian situation has evolved over time. With more information, I started to see the flaws in American foreign policy and in our relation with these foreign proxies. Isreal is a proxy. Ukraine is a proxy. Taiwan is a proxy. Kosovo is a proxy. My focus is on getting America to worry about America and get our own country put back together and protecting our own borders. Let the world sort out their own battles and leave us out of it.

Or as one of my favorite posters recently stated:
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You know, I typically don't have a problem with the Israel side of things. Sure, they get economic and military aid from us, but they also do spend a lot as well. But more to the point, they don't hide behind American military members or beg for protection. They tend to take care of things themselves without needing or wanting help.

While yes, we are sending about $4 billion a year in economic aid, there's something to be said about those not asking for Americans to lay down their lives.
 
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#184
#184
Rasputin_Vol said:
Go back about 12-15 years ago in my post history. My opinion of the Israeli-Palestinian situation has evolved over time. With more information, I started to see the flaws in American foreign policy and in our relation with these foreign proxies. Isreal is a proxy. Ukraine is a proxy. Taiwan is a proxy. Kosovo is a proxy. My focus is on getting America to worry about America and get our own country put back together and protecting our own borders. Let the world sort out their own battles and leave us out of it.

Or as one of my favorite posters recently stated:
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That’s fine. But your stance seems to go beyond opposing intervention and more towards opposing Israel and supporting “Palestine”
 
#185
#185
Grand Vol said:
While yes, we are sending about $4 billion a year in economic aid, there's something to be said about those not asking for Americans to lay down their lives.
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Letter from Marine Commandant Barrow to Defense Secretary Weinberger

The following is the complete text of a letter from General Robert H. Barrow, Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, to Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger. General Barrow sent a copy of the letter to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

March 14, 1983
Dear Mr. Secretary:

I must formally register my deep concern over the two unprovoked incidents in Beirut of this past weekend involving Marines of the Multinational Force and members of the Israeli Defense Forces. I had considered commenting on earlier incidents between Marines and the IDF but corrective measures, which were rapidly implemented in February 1983, appeared to defuse the situation. I can no longer remain silent on this continual problem of provocation from the IDF.

In addition to the U.S. MNF incidents, I have received information concerning serious harassing incidents by the IDF of U.S. officers attached to the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO). These particular incidents involved USMC and USA officers in life-threatening situations, replete with verbal degradation of the officers, their uniform and country. Unfortunately, and of greater concern to me, incidents of this nature are the rule, rather than the exception.

It is evident to me, and the opinion of the U.S. Commanders afloat and ashore, that the incidents between the Marines and the IDF are timed, orchestrated, and executed for obtuse Israeli political purposes. The U.S. has been prompt and forthcoming in defusing previous problems and has established a viable communications procedure between the Marines and IDF. The IDF, however, persist in creating serious incidents.

I am distinctly proud to have Marines participating both as members of the Multinational Force and with UNTSO under the auspices of the United Nations. It is inconceivable to me why Americans -serving in peacekeeping roles-must be harassed, endangered, and degraded by an ally.

Previous demarches and diplomatic initiatives have not eliminated difficulties between our Marines and the IDF. Additionally, the expansion of communications links and the use of Liaison Officers will not preclude additional problems, unless the attitude and actions of the Israelis are altered. It is time for firm and strong action, to demonstrate to the Israelis that a role as a peacekeeper does not presume weakness. If anything, the Israelis should respect our efforts in this region.
Warm personal regards,

Sincerely,
R. H. Barrow
 
#187
#187
Vol8188 said:
That’s fine. But your stance seems to go beyond opposing intervention and more towards opposing Israel and supporting “Palestine”
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I do oppose some of the actions of Israel. At the same time, the Palestinians have some culpability, and from what I have learned, the Jordanians and Egyptians in particular often work against the Palestinians.

I think there is a relatively equal amount of blame to go around. But heaven forbid you say anything critical about the Israelis or Ukrainians right now.
 
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#188
#188
Rasputin_Vol said:
Letter from Marine Commandant Barrow to Defense Secretary Weinberger

The following is the complete text of a letter from General Robert H. Barrow, Commandant of the U.S. Marine Corps, to Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger. General Barrow sent a copy of the letter to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

March 14, 1983
Dear Mr. Secretary:

I must formally register my deep concern over the two unprovoked incidents in Beirut of this past weekend involving Marines of the Multinational Force and members of the Israeli Defense Forces. I had considered commenting on earlier incidents between Marines and the IDF but corrective measures, which were rapidly implemented in February 1983, appeared to defuse the situation. I can no longer remain silent on this continual problem of provocation from the IDF.

In addition to the U.S. MNF incidents, I have received information concerning serious harassing incidents by the IDF of U.S. officers attached to the United Nations Truce Supervisory Organization (UNTSO). These particular incidents involved USMC and USA officers in life-threatening situations, replete with verbal degradation of the officers, their uniform and country. Unfortunately, and of greater concern to me, incidents of this nature are the rule, rather than the exception.

It is evident to me, and the opinion of the U.S. Commanders afloat and ashore, that the incidents between the Marines and the IDF are timed, orchestrated, and executed for obtuse Israeli political purposes. The U.S. has been prompt and forthcoming in defusing previous problems and has established a viable communications procedure between the Marines and IDF. The IDF, however, persist in creating serious incidents.

I am distinctly proud to have Marines participating both as members of the Multinational Force and with UNTSO under the auspices of the United Nations. It is inconceivable to me why Americans -serving in peacekeeping roles-must be harassed, endangered, and degraded by an ally.

Previous demarches and diplomatic initiatives have not eliminated difficulties between our Marines and the IDF. Additionally, the expansion of communications links and the use of Liaison Officers will not preclude additional problems, unless the attitude and actions of the Israelis are altered. It is time for firm and strong action, to demonstrate to the Israelis that a role as a peacekeeper does not presume weakness. If anything, the Israelis should respect our efforts in this region.
Warm personal regards,

Sincerely,
R. H. Barrow
Click to expand...

You think there's something out there less than 40 years old?

Additionally, don't see where they are asking Americans to get involved.
 
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#189
#189
Grand Vol said:
You know, I typically don't have a problem with the Israel side of things. Sure, they get economic and military aid from us, but they also do spend a lot as well. But more to the point, they don't hide behind American military members or beg for protection. They tend to take care of things themselves without needing or wanting help.

While yes, we are sending about $4 billion a year in economic aid, there's something to be said about those not asking for Americans to lay down their lives.
Click to expand...

Israel has also improved some of our weapons systems and developed munitions to use with them ... in addition to building some of their own systems. They really aren't somebody other countries in the region should be messing with.
 
#190
#190
AM64 said:
Israel has also improved some of our weapons systems and developed munitions to use with them ... in addition to building some of their own systems. They really aren't somebody other countries in the region should be messing with.
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They’re also ruthless AF and don’t do all of the stupid stuff we do to try and be loved. If 9/11 had happened in Tel Aviv they wouldn’t have been building schools and clinics in Khandahar.
 
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#191
#191
sonofUT62 said:
They’re also ruthless AF and don’t do all of the stupid stuff we do to try and be loved.
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Then again, what stopped them in 2006?

sonofUT62 said:
If 9/11 had happened in Tel Aviv they wouldn’t have been building schools and clinics in Khandahar.
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Why was the US in Afghanistan in the first place? The mastermind and hijackers were mostly from KSA.

Also, if your answer is that the Taliban was harboring Bin Laden, then WTF was Pakistan doing?
 
#192
#192
Vol8188 said:
If Israel was weak, they wouldn’t exist. How do you justify your hatred of Israel when compared to “Palestine”?

Only one of those two has both Jews and Arabs coexisting, serving on the same Supreme Court, serving in the same government, etc.

The other is worse than an apartheid state. It’s an actual genocide where any jew who enters will be murdered
Click to expand...
There are scads of Israelis in the West Bank and nobody's genociding them.
Israelis go into Gaza occasionly too but it's generally them doing the killing since they go for military ops.
 
#193
#193
EasternVol said:
There are scads of Israelis in the West Bank and nobody's genociding them.
Israelis go into Gaza occasionly too but it's generally them doing the killing since they go for military ops.
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No one is killing Jews in the West Bank because it’s under the control of the Israeli military. Not your best example
 
#196
#196
My favorite part is the false “refugee” claims. You don’t get to call yourself a 3rd/4th/5th/etc generation refugee. Or proclaim you’ve been a refugee for nearly 100 years.

At some point, you just live somewhere else now.
 
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#197
#197
Rasputin_Vol said:
Then again, what stopped them in 2006?


Why was the US in Afghanistan in the first place? The mastermind and hijackers were mostly from KSA.

Also, if your answer is that the Taliban was harboring Bin Laden, then WTF was Pakistan doing?
Click to expand...

1) Pakistan at least tried to make a plausible claim that they didn’t know that UBL was in the country. They also have nukes and share a border and relationship with the Chinese military. There was also a strong relationship between senior CIA leadership and ISI going back to the Soviet invasion.

2) Taliban leadership was there to greet UBL when he landed from the Sudan. He gave an interview to ABC news….on Afghan soil. He hunted with members of their senior leadership. AQ killed ASM as a favor to them. They had no nukes and little relationship with the Chinese. They were also technically enemies of Russia who were now supporting Massoud through Uzbekistan and had not forgotten that several high ranking Taliban leaders were old war dogs from the 80s who had spilled Soviet blood. Treating Pakistan the same as Afghanistan was never an option.

Any other questions I can answer for you?
 
#198
#198
Vol8188 said:
Cool story. It changed nothing. Jews die in territories controlled by Palestinians. Arabs sit on the Supreme Court and serve in the government of Israel.

To pretend the two are the same is nonsense.
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We all know that Israel controls all three directly or indirectly. Jews and Palestinians die in all three. What's your point?
 
#199
#199
EasternVol said:
We all know that Israel controls all three directly or indirectly. Jews and Palestinians die in all three. What's your point?
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The areas Palestinians control, Jews do not live, because they would be exterminated. It seems like a very obvious point.
 
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