Israel invades Lebanon.

[OrangeEmpire]

I guess all of those who have the same viewpoint as me should as well. I guess those who are paid to 'know' should be schooled in everything you know since obviously years of experience and knowledge are incorrect according to you.

This would be a great heading for a discussion about Robert McNamara and the civilian whiz kids with whom he had surrounded himself.

 

[CSpindizzy]

:lolabove: :cry:

Have you been gone for a while?

You have come back with a furry of posts.............

Yeah... in the Middle East getting my edimication on the situation...hard to find a safe place to connect and check in when everything is so rosy... :biggrin2:

Just traveling heavily lately between business here and business overseas. Good to be back keeping the debate alive. Good to see I can still draw a crowd and cause some blood pressure to rise. Glad to do my duty as official agitator-in-chief....no one should take anything personally. It's all in good fun.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Yeah... in the Middle East getting my edimication on the situation...hard to find a safe place to connect and check in when everything is so rosy...

Just traveling heavily lately between business here and business overseas. Good to be back keeping the debate alive. Good to see I can still draw a crowd and cause some blood pressure to rise. Glad to do my duty as official agitator-in-chief....no one should take anything personally. It's all in good fun.

The place is not the same without you. If you would like, jump into the spiritual discussions were are having also.

:cross:

 

[therealUT]

I guess all of those who have the same viewpoint as me should as well. I guess those who are paid to 'know' should be schooled in everything you know since obviously years of experience and knowledge are incorrect according to you.

Well, the tenet of force multipliers is very basic. If one does not understand it, then they should probably not be making any kind of judgment concerning warfare.

 

[OWB]

The place is not the same without you. If you would like, jump into the spiritual discussions were are having also.

:cross:

I say let them be so we don't have to read anymore from Jerry and Pat..

 

[CSpindizzy]

This would be a great heading for a discussion about Robert McNamara and the civilian whiz kids with whom he had surrounded himself.

Actually I was referring to those in uniform who have a different assessment than the good officer here.

 

[CSpindizzy]

The place is not the same without you. If you would like, jump into the spiritual discussions were are having also.

:cross:

Religion can be more dangerous to discuss than this. I never run from a challenge but right now time has me constrained to the few topics I ventured into. If I can get thses reports finished I will tip toe ever so lightly into that area and then rattle the proverbial garbage cans.

 

[CSpindizzy]

I say let them be so we don't have to read anymore from Jerry and Pat..

Falwell and Robertson? THEY are posting here?

 

[CSpindizzy]

Well, the tenet of force multipliers is very basic. If one does not understand it, then they should probably not be making any kind of judgment concerning warfare.

So the Pentagon putting a lot of brass in charge not understanding the basics? Scary. I figured that geometric wonder had some decently qualified people making assessments of warfare and strategery. I guess I was wrong.

 

[therealUT]

So the Pentagon putting a lot of brass in charge not understanding the basics? Scary. I figured that geometric wonder had some decently qualified people making assessments of warfare and strategery. I guess I was wrong.

Do you want to discount my argument concering ROE again? Are you really that dense? We cannot fully apply all our weaponry while caring more about minimizing civilian casualties than in destroying the enemy, therefore, our superior weaponry is not acting as a force multiplier in this engagement, and therefore we did not have enough troops to secure the borders while at the same time spearheading an effort towards the interior of the country. However, if we unleashed our full array of superior weaponry against said enemy, we would easily have the forces to wage and win wars against Syria and Iran at the same time.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

Actually I was referring to those in uniform who have a different assessment than the good officer here.

I know, that was the first thing I thought when I was reading your remark.

Sounds like the whiz kids! :birgits_giggle:

 

[OWB]

Falwell and Robertson? THEY are posting here?

Yes..

smoke em = Pat

allvol123 = Jerry

 

[CSpindizzy]

Do you want to discount my argument concering ROE again? Are you really that dense? We cannot fully apply all our weaponry while caring more about minimizing civilian casualties than in destroying the enemy, therefore, our superior weaponry is not acting as a force multiplier in this engagement, and therefore we did not have enough troops to secure the borders while at the same time spearheading an effort towards the interior of the country. However, if we unleashed our full array of superior weaponry against said enemy, we would easily have the forces to wage and win wars against Syria and Iran at the same time.

Uh oh...someone's getting testy. Let me repeat. There are quite a few brass hats that have already said repeatedly what we should have done and what they explained to their bosses repeatedly what needed to be done.

My guess is that shock and awe, the full array you keep harping on, would have succeeded had we used SUPER SHOCK AND AWE instead. Perhaps Israel in their massive air campaign in the first week in Lebanon would argue your point as well. You needed boots on the ground. We were limited on that number and we were told by the experts, the people in the Pentagon paid to figure that out, that we needed more. You can keep harping on this point. But I am going to side with those who have years of knowledge and experience in this matter.

 

[therealUT]

Uh oh...someone's getting testy. Let me repeat. There are quite a few brass hats that have already said repeatedly what we should have done and what they explained to their bosses repeatedly what needed to be done.

My guess is that shock and awe, the full array you keep harping on, would have succeeded had we used SUPER SHOCK AND AWE instead. Perhaps Israel in their massive air campaign in the first week in Lebanon would argue your point as well. You needed boots on the ground. We were limited on that number and we were told by the experts, the people in the Pentagon paid to figure that out, that we needed more. You can keep harping on this point. But I am going to side with those who have years of knowledge and experience in this matter.

So, in your opinion, Colin Powell's preference of actually involving the international coalition forces in the attack into Kuwait, was the right move, over Norman Schwartzkopf's preference to limit the main offensive to American troops, and let the coalition forces be there in reserve? It would be correct, because Powell was in the Pentagon, while Schwartzkopf was the field commander? Yet, in hindsight, the strategic failure of the Gulf War was that communications broke down between the international troops, mainly the German component, so the 'hammer' did not close in time. Therefore, instead of eliminating 75% of Saddam's army, we eliminated, at most 20-30%.

Another scenario, Carl Steiner and Maxwell Thurman, the field commanders in Operation Just Cause, pushed their plan over the Blue Spoon plan that was being pushed at the Pentagon. The success in OJC was incredibly efficient and led to far fewer casualties than Pentagon estimates.

Just because staffers in the Pentagon conduct some study, does not make it the only right way. There are plenty of instances in military history where the ground commanders overrode the Pentagon staffers and achieved sweeping success.

That being said though, a superior Shock and Awe and maybe an actualy engagement of more Iraqi forces through airpower, would have most likely caused a higher initial count of civilian casualties, but would have also reduced the amount of forces we needed to dedicate to the interior of the country, freeing more forces up to secure the border. However, the ROE sent down from the top, made it quite clear that we could only engage targets of opportunity in which there would be the most minimal of civilian casualties.

 

[CSpindizzy]

So, in your opinion, Colin Powell's preference of actually involving the international coalition forces in the attack into Kuwait, was the right move, over Norman Schwartzkopf's preference to limit the main offensive to American troops, and let the coalition forces be there in reserve? It would be correct, because Powell was in the Pentagon, while Schwartzkopf was the field commander? Yet, in hindsight, the strategic failure of the Gulf War was that communications broke down between the international troops, mainly the German component, so the 'hammer' did not close in time. Therefore, instead of eliminating 75% of Saddam's army, we eliminated, at most 20-30%.

Another scenario, Carl Steiner and Maxwell Thurman, the field commanders in Operation Just Cause, pushed their plan over the Blue Spoon plan that was being pushed at the Pentagon. The success in OJC was incredibly efficient and led to far fewer casualties than Pentagon estimates.

Just because staffers in the Pentagon conduct some study, does not make it the only right way. There are plenty of instances in military history where the ground commanders overrode the Pentagon staffers and achieved sweeping success.

That being said though, a superior Shock and Awe and maybe an actualy engagement of more Iraqi forces through airpower, would have most likely caused a higher initial count of civilian casualties, but would have also reduced the amount of forces we needed to dedicate to the interior of the country, freeing more forces up to secure the border. However, the ROE sent down from the top, made it quite clear that we could only engage targets of opportunity in which there would be the most minimal of civilian casualties.

That truly has to be the most absurd assessment of why we succeeded/failed in the Gulf War. We failed because GHWB left the conditions to just the liberation of Kuwait. Once we hindered the lines of supply just inside Iraq, we called for a cessation of hostilities especially since the coalition would have completely fell apart had we gone further. Half of our coalitions' forces were from nations who would have turned on us if we went further.

I have no clue where you came in with communications failures and blaming Germans. How can you blame them when they had no active role there and were of insignificant military presence? Our entire operation was based on the air war destroying anything of major importance. If there was a failure, it was due to the air war NOT some breakdown in communications.

We were not there to eliminate Saddam's army. That was not our goal or mission. Our mission was for the liberation and protection of Kuwait. We managed to severely cripple his capability of warfare. Even in putting down revolts, his heavy equipment was completely limited.

You've completely missed my point again. I did not limit my words just on paper pushers in the Pentagon. Let me ask you this. Out of all of the generals who have come out and criticised this whole operation in one area or another, how many were actual unit commanders? How many were in the Pentagon?

 

[therealUT]

We were not there to eliminate Saddam's army. That was not our goal or mission. Our mission was for the liberation and protection of Kuwait. We managed to severely cripple his capability of warfare. Even in putting down revolts, his heavy equipment was completely limited.

One of the goals of the plan was to eliminate enough of the Iraqi military, that when the revolt that we encouraged would be able to succeed. This did not happen, because we failed to eliminate much of the Iraqi army.

 

[CSpindizzy]

One of the goals of the plan was to eliminate enough of the Iraqi military, that when the revolt that we encouraged would be able to succeed. This did not happen, because we failed to eliminate much of the Iraqi army.

Um...no. That was never part of the plan for the coalition. The reason the revolt failed is because we promised aid to the Shia and encouraged them to revolt including a radio broadcast telling them when but then failed to aid them in any way. Essentially we told them if they'd revolt we'd help them. We told them when to revolt and we failed to show up. We failed to do pretty much anything while those 100K people faced instant death. Oh well.

 

[CSpindizzy]

Oh how we travel through the Middle East. We were fighting in the Bekaa Valley and then we somehow wandered over to the delta region of Iraq and Kuwait.

 

[utvolpj]

This could really get ugly soon:

Intelligence reports indicate the leader of Hezbollah is hiding in a foreign mission in Beirut, possibly the Iranian Embassy, according to U.S. and Israeli officials.
Israeli military and intelligence forces are continuing to hunt for Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's secretary-general, who fled his headquarters in Beirut shortly before Israeli jets bombed the building last week.
"We think he is in an embassy," said one U.S. official with access to the intelligence reports, while Israeli intelligence speculates Sheik Nasrallah is hiding in the Iranian Embassy.
If confirmed, the reports could lead to an Israeli air strike on the embassy, possibly leading to a widening of the conflict, said officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity. Foreign embassies are sovereign territory and an attack on an embassy could be considered an act of war.

 

[OrangeEmpire]

GOD BLESS AMERICA!

 

[vader]

Land that I love.

 

[allvol123]

This could really get ugly soon:

Could get ugly, but that is not necessarily a bad thing. Some people think a situation such as this should be avoided because of the death and destruction. That really is not a good reason to avoid such a substantial problem. No one likes going to the dentist because it is painful and there will be bloodshed, but there is much more value in going to the dentist regularly and facing some pain rather than avoiding him for years only to put off an inevitable and more painful visit because of ignoring the issue. Israel can deal with this now as they are doing, or bow to the UN and let up. If they do the latter, there will just be a more painful visit in the future.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Looks like the Israelis are wanting to FAFO again with Hezbollah. I wonder if the US will sanction Israel for these "unprovoked" attacks?

Israel Threatens To Strike "Every Meter" Of Lebanon Amid Maritime Dispute | ZeroHedge

Gallant said that Hezbollah "might mistakenly think that they can test Israel" due to the deep internal crisis it is facing, and the vow made by many of its army reservists to boycott military service protests against the government’s judicial reform program.

He affirmed, however, that Israel would not be divided in the event that Hezbollah threatened it with war. Gallant’s threats came just hours after the Lebanese army mobilized its naval forces in response to Israeli boats that violated Lebanese sovereignty on Tuesday.

Al-Mayadeen news outlet observed the Israeli boats entering Lebanon’s territorial waters via a camera located in the Naqoura area while the Lebanese army was escorting a tour of dozens of journalists to the southern borders.

Recently, there has been a series of Lebanese responses to ongoing Israeli violations of the country’s sovereignty. These violations include excavations on Lebanon’s side of the border, which serve as the basis for an Israeli plan to build a defensive wall.

 

[hog88]

Looks like the Israelis are wanting to FAFO again with Hezbollah. I wonder if the US will sanction Israel for these "unprovoked" attacks?

Israel Threatens To Strike "Every Meter" Of Lebanon Amid Maritime Dispute | ZeroHedge

Gallant said that Hezbollah "might mistakenly think that they can test Israel" due to the deep internal crisis it is facing, and the vow made by many of its army reservists to boycott military service protests against the government’s judicial reform program.

He affirmed, however, that Israel would not be divided in the event that Hezbollah threatened it with war. Gallant’s threats came just hours after the Lebanese army mobilized its naval forces in response to Israeli boats that violated Lebanese sovereignty on Tuesday.

Al-Mayadeen news outlet observed the Israeli boats entering Lebanon’s territorial waters via a camera located in the Naqoura area while the Lebanese army was escorting a tour of dozens of journalists to the southern borders.

Recently, there has been a series of Lebanese responses to ongoing Israeli violations of the country’s sovereignty. These violations include excavations on Lebanon’s side of the border, which serve as the basis for an Israeli plan to build a defensive wall.

Hezbollah exists solely because Israel allows them to.

 

[Rasputin_Vol]

Hezbollah exists solely because Israel allows them to.

So what stopped them from wiping the floor with them in 2006?

Contrary to popular belief, the Israelis of 2023 are not the same from 1967. And the Israelis had more than what they bargained for dealing with Hezbollah.