Israel vs Palestinians

#25,251
#25,251
EasternVol said:
I don't think it works that way. Our response still needs to be in bounds.
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We are on different paths, then.

I see it the same as our current laws. I can't murder you. But I can kill you to protect myself and my family if you are a legitimate threat.
 
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#25,252
#25,252
McDad said:
I am in favor of both. Let's unentangle ourselves from other countries AND draw a hard line against American hostages.

If we go to war and incur expense, what better reason than to protect Americans today and in the future,
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I just don't think it works like that. It's this perpetual motion machine where we are entangled so we are a target and because we are a target, we justify entanglement. It keeps going and going
 
#25,253
#25,253
n_huffhines said:
I just don't think it works like that. It's this perpetual motion machine where we are entangled so we are a target and because we are a target, we justify entanglement. It keeps going and going
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It doesn't work that way with every country. That was the point I discussed with Eastern. We still have a presence in Japan and Germany without any perpetual entaglements.

We should get out of those counties too, though.
 
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#25,257
#25,257
McDad said:
It doesn't work that way with every country. That was the point I discussed with Eastern. We still have a presence in Japan and Germany without any perpetual entaglements.

We should get out of those counties too, though.
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Oh we're entangled up to our eyeballs with those two.
 
#25,260
#25,260
McDad said:
I'm sorry. I am still unclear. I am not sure if the measures are "bombing wedding parties" or "brutal warfare".

I asked about blowback of those specific countries because we have been at war, sometime brutally, with all of them in our brief history. And yet, even with the most horrific weapon used against Japan, and brutal practices against Germany there isn't lingering blowback as far as I can tell.
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The measures are in post 25,145. Bombing wedding parties came later.
 
#25,261
#25,261
EasternVol said:
The measures are in post 25,145. Bombing wedding parties came later.
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Yeah, I'm tracking with you.

Pro mass killings...as we did against Germany and Japan. That was war and not hostages but I believe the net result is the same.
 
#25,262
#25,262
McDad said:
We are on different paths, then.

I see it the same as our current laws. I can't murder you. But I can kill you to protect myself and my family if you are a legitimate threat.
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Can you kill a kidnapper if you have no valid reason to think the kidnapper is an imminent threat to the life of the kidnapped, you, or someone else?
 
#25,263
#25,263
EasternVol said:
Can you kill a kidnapper if you have no valid reason to think the kidnapper is an imminent threat to the life of the kidnapped, you, or someone else?
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That would have to be a very special kidnapper.

I would assume a kidnapper is capable of doing much harm including ending the life of the kidnapped.
 
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#25,264
#25,264
McDad said:
That would have to be a very special kidnapper.

I would assume a kidnapper is capable of doing much harm including ending the life of the kidnapped.
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To the best of my knowledge, capability by itself doesn't justify killing the kidnapper though, it's that plus a reasonable perception of intent (*to be validated by someone with real understanding of criminal law).
 
#25,265
#25,265
EasternVol said:
To the best of my knowledge, capability by itself doesn't justify killing the kidnapper though, it's that plus a reasonable perception of intent (*to be validated by someone with real understanding of criminal law).
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I still am for brutal, disproportionate response against those who kidnap and hold Americans hostage. Now, if they let them go unharmed, that's the end of it for me.
 
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#25,266
#25,266
EasternVol said:
Can you kill a kidnapper if you have no valid reason to think the kidnapper is an imminent threat to the life of the kidnapped, you, or someone else?
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The fact that the kidnapping happened is no doubt a threat of life to the ones kidnapped. Here's another scenario: Let's say a husband comes home to find you standing over his bruised and beaten wife after she just suffered a brutal rape. Is he going to sit down with the rapist over a cup of herbal tea and give him $100 if he promises to not do that again? A real man would give him a beating like none other. He'd break bones by the score leaving him 1/4" from death so that he could be an example to others of his kind. Which do you think would be the most effective?
 
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#25,267
#25,267
Tnslim1 said:
The fact that the kidnapping happened is no doubt a threat of life to the ones kidnapped. Here's another scenario: Let's say a husband comes home to find you standing over his bruised and beaten wife after she just suffered a brutal rape. Is he going to sit down with the rapist over a cup of herbal tea and give him $100 if he promises to not do that again? A real man would give him a beating like none other. He'd break bones by the score leaving him 1/4" from death so that he could be an example to others of his kind. Which do you think would be the most effective?
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Cool story. The point is the circumstances under which killing the kidnapper would be legal.
 
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#25,269
#25,269
Tnslim1 said:
I agree except for your final statement. That should not be the end as there should be a brutal retribution for the act of kidnapping.
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I can appreciate the sentiment. And I understand it.

But for me, if hostages are returned and no harm has been done, then I would move on. The goal is to get our people back and discourage others from kidnapping and holding Americans hostage.
 
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#25,270
#25,270
McDad said:
I can appreciate the sentiment. And I understand it.

But for me, if hostages are returned and no harm has been done, then I would move on. The goal is to get our people back and discourage others from kidnapping and holding Americans hostage.
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How would the discouragement come from no retribution on the perpetrators for the act of kidnapping. A slap on the wrist wouldn't last long but several hard slaps upside the head would better get their attention.
 
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#25,271
#25,271
EasternVol said:
Can you kill a kidnapper if you have no valid reason to think the kidnapper is an imminent threat to the life of the kidnapped, you, or someone else?
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Holding someone against their will could be considered an imminent threat couldn't it?

The person being held has no idea what the end game is, they would most certainly consider their lives and well being at risk no?
 
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#25,272
#25,272
Tnslim1 said:
How would the discouragement come from no retribution on the perpetrators for the act of kidnapping. A slap on the wrist wouldn't last long but several hard slaps upside the head would better get their attention.
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My hope would be the threat of imminent annihilation would be enough to not only convince the current kidnappers to let our people go but would also serve as a deterrent to any future rapscallions.
 
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#25,273
#25,273
McDad said:
My hope would be the threat of imminent annihilation would be enough to not only convince the current kidnappers to let our people go but would also serve as a deterrent to any future rapscallions.
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Actions are louder than threats. A strong response lasts far longer than negotiations.
 
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#25,274
#25,274
KB5252 said:
Holding someone against their will could be considered an imminent threat couldn't it?

The person being held has no idea what the end game is, they would most certainly consider their lives and well being at risk no?
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It would depend on the situation. If the kidnapper had a weapon trained on the victim there'd be more reason to assume a threat to the victim's life than if the kidnapper was in a different room taking a nap.
 
#25,275
#25,275
EasternVol said:
It would depend on the situation. If the kidnapper had a weapon trained on the victim there'd be more reason to assume a threat to the victim's life than if the kidnapper was in a different room taking a nap.
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Lmfao just assume your kidnapper is benevolent

Your takes get dumber by the day. You have no right to take someone against their will.

They have every right to respond with violence if you do so
 
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