Israel vs Palestinians

[LSU-SIU]

Do you have the Spanish and French claims to the territory reversed? At any rate when we bought it, it was inhabited, and displacement of the inhabitants was done by the US.

Just because you are an inhabitant of something, doesn't make you the owner. The Indians had no concept of money, land rights, or even understand the basics of anything. Is there instances where compensation wasn't given, absolute, you can still find land records to this effect, the issue is... it's not on some grand scale.

If you believe you are owed compensation for something, you most likely can still file a claim. Although, I'm starting to doubt anyone can prove they were the original owners (or linkage) without conquer themselves.

The issue to me isn't what the U.S. did 225 years ago, the issue is what the U.S. does every day with all these wars its creating. Just my take. You are worried about Americans centuries ago, yet you are part of a huge problem today.

 

[n_huffhines]

Pretty sure you just described the arc of human history, not just American history

If there is to be a formerly recognized Palestinian state, are you suggesting it should be where people are not already living? Or should we just waltz in and start that country where people already live?

It is noted that 1948 was before the founding of the State of Palestine, although I'm sure you knew that.

What is your point? My point is that's completely arbitrary and useless to the discussion of what is right/wrong. Just because Israel was able to establish a nation 76 years ago doesn't mean that what happened to Palestinians is fair or right. It was totally fkd, and that's why they're still fighting 75 years later.

 

[LSU-SIU]

What is your point? My point is that's completely arbitrary and useless to the discussion of what is right/wrong. Just because Israel was able to establish a nation 76 years ago doesn't mean that what happened to Palestinians is fair or right. It was totally fkd, and that's why they're still fighting 75 years later.

There are solutions for that. We stay out of it for the most part.

Unless Israel starts wiping people out, they will cease to be a nation at some point because the people on the other side have that objective.

 

[Orangeslice13]

I wonder which is safer for the Minority

I felt safer in Chicago than in either place

 

[McDad]

What is your point? My point is that's completely arbitrary and useless to the discussion of what is right/wrong. Just because Israel was able to establish a nation 76 years ago doesn't mean that what happened to Palestinians is fair or right. It was totally fkd, and that's why they're still fighting 75 years later.

They will continue to fight in the future until one side completely destroys and subjugates the other.

Nobody on the planet can alter that destiny.

 

[Orangeslice13]

They will continue to fight in the future until one side completely destroys and subjugates the other.

Nobody on the planet can alter that destiny.

It’s crazy when people from over here think we can make people over there think like we want them too.

 

[OrangeTsar]

Israel was founded in 1948, although I'm sure you knew that.

Wrong. Israel was restored in 1948. It was FOUNDED about 1200 BC.
Just wondering if you believe the Bible at all?

 

[EasternVol]

Just because you are an inhabitant of something, doesn't make you the owner. The Indians had no concept of money, land rights, or even understand the basics of anything. Is there instances where compensation wasn't given, absolute, you can still find land records to this effect, the issue is... it's not on some grand scale.

If you believe you are owed compensation for something, you most likely can still file a claim. Although, I'm starting to doubt anyone can prove they were the original owners (or linkage) without conquer themselves.

The issue to me isn't what the U.S. did 225 years ago, the issue is what the U.S. does every day with all these wars its creating. Just my take. You are worried about Americans centuries ago, yet you are part of a huge problem today.

Describing accurately what happened when is not worry. Being opposed to human rights abuses and attrocities is not being part of the problem but in fact the opposite applies.

 

[EasternVol]

Wrong. Israel was restored in 1948. It was FOUNDED about 1200 BC.
Just wondering if you believe the Bible at all?

It's a completely different state.

 

[OrangeTsar]

They will continue to fight in the future until one side completely destroys and subjugates the other.

Nobody on the planet can alter that destiny.

Armageddon is located innSouthern Lebanon FWIW

 

[OrangeTsar]

It's a completely different state.

 

[LSU-SIU]

Describing accurately what happened when is not worry. Being opposed to human rights abuses and attrocities is not being part of the problem but in fact the opposite applies.

You (we) are part of abuses TODAY which are so large that what happen back hundreds of years ago would be like the fly on an elephant i.e. context.

 

[LSU-SIU]

It's a completely different state.

Then you need to get into Thunderdome because you have a major disagreement with others. My take is its their problem to work out. I don't want my funds to go to anyone.

Let them fight.

Everyone wants to fight for others on a forum, but nobody ever seems to actually want to fight.

 

[n_huffhines]

Wrong. Israel was restored in 1948. It was FOUNDED about 1200 BC.
Just wondering if you believe the Bible at all?

It's not the same thing. First of all, the Bible tells us it's the Land of Canaan, right? 1200 BC, it was just tribal confederations that comprised the people of Israel. Then it was unified for a brief period under a monarch, but it's not the same geographic borders or government...it's not even the same type of government. Then it split. Then it was conquered.

It's their home just as much as its the Canaanites' home and the Palestinians' home. They do not have a special claim to it. If you believe the Bible, then you know they lost claim to it because of sin and disbelief.

 

[LSU-SIU]

It's not the same thing. First of all, the Bible tells us it's the Land of Canaan, right? 1200 BC, it was just tribal confederations that comprised the people of Israel. Then it was unified for a brief period under a monarch, but it's not the same geographic borders or government...it's not even the same type of government. Then it split. Then it was conquered.

It's their home just as much as its the Canaanites' home and the Palestinians' home. They do not have a special claim to it. If you believe the Bible, then you know they lost claim to it because of sin and disbelief.

You just described every current nation on the globe.

 

[85SugarVol]

Israel was founded in 1947.

This would be like Americans getting conquered and moving out. The next guys getting conquered and moving out. Then Native Americans coming back with the help of the western world and kicking out the people who were living under the rule of the last guys (and had lived there ~1500 years), establishing a country, and claiming it was founded thousands of years ago. There was no state of Israel. It's just a region that Jews (and others) used to inhabit. The big difference is the Native Americans were the only people here that we know of. Jews were not the first in the region now known as Israel.

This long held belief that Homo Sapien, 13k years ago, was the first human to set foot in the Americas.

I am increasingly of the opinion that some day in the not too distant future, we will come to understand that that was not the case.

 

[barknoxbrawler]

Pretty sure you just described the arc of human history, not just American history



If there is to be a formerly recognized Palestinian state, are you suggesting it should be where people are not already living? Or should we just waltz in and start that country where people already live?







It is noted that 1948 was before the founding of the State of Palestine, although I'm sure you knew that.

I wish there was a love button. This would be deserving of my first use of it.

 

[CobbVol]

It's a completely different state.

Samaria, Judea, and Galilee.

 

[LSU-SIU]

This long held belief that Homo Sapien, 13k years ago, was the first human to set foot in the Americas.

I am increasingly of the opinion that some day in the not too distant future, we will come to understand that that was not the case.

Yup. I think there are a ton of wrong assumptions.

 

[n_huffhines]

You just described every current nation on the globe.

Exactly

 

[n_huffhines]

This long held belief that Homo Sapien, 13k years ago, was the first human to set foot in the Americas.

I am increasingly of the opinion that some day in the not too distant future, we will come to understand that that was not the case.

That day is here, because current wisdom puts that at 15,000 - 20,000 years ago, and maybe earlier (artifacts indicate maybe 23,000 to 30,000 years ago).

 

[Ritzwatch]

What is your point? My point is that's completely arbitrary and useless to the discussion of what is right/wrong. Just because Israel was able to establish a nation 76 years ago doesn't mean that what happened to Palestinians is fair or right. It was totally fkd, and that's why they're still fighting 75 years later.

My point, which I was making to Eastern, is that his defining the Jewish people's claim to the political boundaries we now know as Israel only by it's date of recognition by the international community in 1948 is asinine. It is almost as asinine as his defining Palestinian statehood by the issuance of passports. (Speaking of which, if any of you want citizenship in the Great Nation of Ritzistan, please forward a $150 processing fee and I will happily send you a passport. As a bonus, you may be able to avoid US taxes, but I strongly encourage you to seek legal and CPA guidance on that because I don't really mean it.)

You decided to interject yourself by trying to to compare the legitimacy of the modern boundaries of Israel to the settlement of the North American colonies by European settlers, the establishment of the United States by the revolutionaries and then the westward expansion during manifest destiny. Each of these displaced indigenous populations which you tried to establish as being uniquely comparable to the Israeli/Palestinian disputes, when in fact all civilizations have operated by conquest since the beginning of time. If you intended your point to be about arbitrariness and uselessness of history in judging right/wrong, your point was ineffectively made, as without conquest, no society would have a legitimate claim to their current boundaries anywhere, ever.

You actually helped make my next point: Picking a random date 76 years ago to establish Israeli legitimacy is not any more or any less valid than choosing 77 years ago to say that the Palestinians should possess the land. Kicking Israelis out today wouldn't be any more "fair" or "right" than what happened 76 years ago, and make no mistake, the only way the Palestinians get that land now is to kick the Jews out. When should we start on the calendar to decide what is "fair?" Whatever you pick, those are just arbitrary dates. Pick any date in human history. Those who identify as sons of Abram/Abraham are going to claim birthright. Political boundaries of the State of Israel doesn't matter. The claims to these lands go back way farther and are so much more involved than geopolitical boundaries and travel restrictions. They aren't fighting because of what happened 75 years ago. You are welcome to believe that the way some believe passports establish a sovereign nation. The reality is these peoples have been fighting for millennia and they will continue to fight until the end.

 

[Orangeslice13]

It's not the same thing. First of all, the Bible tells us it's the Land of Canaan, right? 1200 BC, it was just tribal confederations that comprised the people of Israel. Then it was unified for a brief period under a monarch, but it's not the same geographic borders or government...it's not even the same type of government. Then it split. Then it was conquered.

It's their home just as much as its the Canaanites' home and the Palestinians' home. They do not have a special claim to it. If you believe the Bible, then you know they lost claim to it because of sin and disbelief.

You fall back on that all the time but won’t address your fundamental misunderstanding of sin

 

[n_huffhines]

You actually helped make my next point: Picking a random date 76 years ago to establish Israeli legitimacy is not any more or any less valid than choosing 77 years ago to say that the Palestinians should possess the land. Kicking Israelis out today wouldn't be any more "fair" or "right" than what happened 76 years ago, and make no mistake, the only way the Palestinians get that land now is to kick the Jews out. When should we start on the calendar to decide what is "fair?" Whatever you pick, those are just arbitrary dates. Pick any date in human history. Those who identify as sons of Abram/Abraham are going to claim birthright. Political boundaries of the State of Israel doesn't matter. The claims to these lands go back way farther and are so much more involved than geopolitical boundaries and travel restrictions. They aren't fighting because of what happened 75 years ago. You are welcome to believe that the way some believe passports establish a sovereign nation. The reality is these peoples have been fighting for millennia and they will continue to fight until the end.

Thank you.

Did anybody actually say they should? I don't think that me or Eastern did, and that's probably why your point was lost to everyone.

Maybe Eastern differs on this...Palestinians don't have a "right" to govern those boundaries just because they were there 77 years ago, but I do think the families who were kicked out of their homes and off their land do have a right to those homes and land.

 

[OrangeTsar]

It's their home just as much as it’s the Canaanites' home and the Palestinians' home. They do not have a special claim to it. If you believe the Bible, then you know they lost claim to it because of sin and disbelief.

My understanding of the scripture is that Israel was removed from the land for a time due to sin and disbelief but that they will be returned to it in the last days. The original promise to the Patriarchs used the words “eternal” and “forever”. I take those words to be literal.