Israel vs Palestinians

[Vol8188]

Something like that, like opening up on kids playing soccer on the beach.

Just to be clear, it’s possible to unintentionally kill civilians on a beach right?

But it’s not possible to unintentionally kidnap children.

 

[85SugarVol]

Weird, because you’ve been openly lying for sometime in this thread now. I’m not convinced it’s out of ignorance either.

Apparently I called someone a liar “out of ignorance”.

Yet it’s @n_huffhines that is ignorant to who and what is being discussed.

Must be difficult being so noble and principled.

 

[NashVol11]

You are arguing with the wiki article, not me.

However, the promised reforms were not implemented, leading to a deterioration in the dispute.

I’m not arguing with the article. In fact, the changes in circumstance I listed all came directly from the article.

 

[EasternVol]

The US military changed the government.

because...?

 

[McDad]

I realize I do not understand how many of you think about the ongoing conflict.

For those of you willing to shed light, I would appreciate it.

Do you see the IDF and Hamas as essentially the same in practice just different in ideology?

Are (Gaza, WB, Gollun Heights) Palestinians different than Palestinians who live and work peacefully in Israel?

 

[n_huffhines]

My conclusion is neither impact or not. My conclusion is that these events happened in sequence but we don't know the extent to which the first event had on the second. It's the same connectivity conspiracy theorists use. This isn't a conspiracy and you are not a CT. Using that connect-the-dots approach CT's use to discuss the same methodology here.
My most ardent conclusion is that even after the monks killed themselves, what was promised was not delivered. Only then, did the US military get involved....which I don't like. I am becoming more isolationist over time. I believe we will see that with the fella who killed himself to protest israeli-palestinian relations. We are all likely to go to our graves with that conflict continuing.

I think this guy would just be happy to have an impact on a ceasefire of the bloodiest period in this conflict of our lifetimes.

 

[McDad]

I’m not arguing with the article. In fact, the changes in circumstance I listed all came directly from the article.

I believe your position is awareness fomented change.

My position is the US military fomented change.

While our ideas aren't mutually exclusive, they are also not mutually inclusive. The degree of the disagreement is whether the burning monks motivated the US to act. Is that correct?

 

[StarRaider]

what is different about this one?

Protester sets themself on fire outside Israel consulate in Atlanta, Georgia

A security guard who attempted to intervene was also injured in the incident and taken to hospital.

www.bbc.com

 

[McDad]

I think this guy would just be happy to have an impact on a ceasefire of the bloodiest period in this conflict of our lifetimes.

It's a noble notion. We all hope he didn't kill himself in vain.

I am afraid he did.

 

[NashVol11]

I believe your position is awareness fomented change.

My position is the US military fomented change.

While our ideas aren't mutually exclusive, they are also not mutually inclusive. The degree of the disagreement is whether the burning monks motivated the US to act. Is that correct?

No. You keep repeating “changed circumstances.” U.S. intervention isn’t the one and only possible changed circumstance; I listed several that should not have been difficult to understand.

 

[EasternVol]

Just to be clear, it’s possible to unintentionally kill civilians on a beach right?

But it’s not possible to unintentionally kidnap children.

It's possible to unintentionally do a lot of things but that's not what happened.

 

[jp1]

Mohamed Bouazizi’s self-immolation was a catalyst for the Arab Spring as well

I had to look up Bouazizi. Found this interesting in my search.

Self-immolation persists as grim form of protest in Tunisia

KASSERINE, Tunisia (AP) — In his old life, Hosni Kalaia remembers strolling the streets of his hometown of Kasserine in central Tunisia with confidence.

apnews.com

 

[McDad]

because...?

I cannot find the proof it is from burning monks. I am not willing to make the assumption.

If people burning themselves gets us to take action, we should get the word out to flammable North Koreans.

 

[Vol8188]

It's possible to unintentionally do a lot of things but that's not what happened.

Interesting. What do you base that on? You have psychic ability?

I’m certain some tragedies on Israel’s part were intentional. You seem certain 100% of them were intentional.

How in the world could you possibly know that?

 

[McDad]

For those of you connecting the dots between burning monks and US military intervention, try this on for size. Let me know what you think.

The US presence has prevented the brutal regime leading Israel and the brutal sect of Palestinians (PLO, Hamas, etc) from being even more despotic and horrible to each other.

 

[LouderVol]

I did ask the question somewhat out of ignorance, at least on my end. I think the point most have been making was, the act of self immolation is ineffective as a means of protest. My guess is most that read my question had no clue of the reason without looking it up. Im not certain, but I think the act you presented was different than the one that Louder was even referencing. It appears over 100 acts of self immolation by monks have occurred since 2009.

Very unfortunate that the US airmen took his own life.

no that was the case I was specifically thinking about. I was wrong because it was an "and" situation rather than the "or" I thought.

I just coincidentally was also right that there were other monks doing it against the Chinese. I was just unaware about those cases until I googled today. The oldest I saw against the Chinese dated to the 90s. so my original post was indeed wrong about the cause of that infamous case of self immolation.

 

[85SugarVol]

I realize I do not understand how many of you think about the ongoing conflict.

For those of you willing to shed light, I would appreciate it.

Do you see the IDF and Hamas as essentially the same in practice just different in ideology?

Are (Gaza, WB, Gollun Heights) Palestinians different than Palestinians who live and work peacefully in Israel?

Do they see IDF & Hamas the same? Lord, no.

They see IDF as objectively worse.

IDF is prosecuting a Genocide.
Hamas holds no such desires.

IDF deliberately bombs babies.
Hamas simply steals babies.

IDF tortures prisoners of war.
Hamas is viewed warmly by hostages.

 

[McDad]

Do they see IDF & Hamas the same? Lord, no.

They see IDF as objectively worse.

IDF is prosecuting a Genocide.
Hamas holds no such desires.

IDF deliberately bombs babies.
Hamas simply steals babies.

IDF tortures prisoners of war.
Hamas is viewed warmly by hostages.

That's how you see it or are you speaking for others?

 

[n_huffhines]

I realize I do not understand how many of you think about the ongoing conflict.

For those of you willing to shed light, I would appreciate it.

Do you see the IDF and Hamas as essentially the same in practice just different in ideology?

Are (Gaza, WB, Gollun Heights) Palestinians different than Palestinians who live and work peacefully in Israel?

I view it like this...both sides have good reason to feel wronged by the other. It goes so far back now, it doesn't actually matter how it started. Neither side is good. Both have committed atrocities. Generally speaking, IDF uses more acceptable methods for fighting, but they do 10x body count. That's basically the history of my life. One Palestinian kills 1 Israeli, and then Israel kills 10 Palestinians. So who is right? The people who want sovereignty and can't fight fair or the masters who can fight fair and still mass murder?

The answer is neither is right. For some reason, Americans are hell-bent on picking a side. I don't know what the solution is, but it can't go on the same way. Netanyahu likes it this way. He has political power when it's this way. That's why he funneled $ to Hamas (which means we American taxpayers indirectly funneled $ to Hamas). He thinks their having power is good for him. We have a conflict of interest here. Netanyahu is promising no 2-state solution to his political supporters. We can't take a 2-state solution completely off the table if we're interested in figuring out what the best solution is. IDK if a 2-state solution is best, I am just saying this is compelling evidence that Netanyahu not pursuing what's best. Netanyahu and the people in power can keep things in turmoil forever, never fixing anything. It's similar to hot-button issues here, like immigration. Never fix it because the fact that it's bad for the country is good for you, Senator.

I urge anybody to listen to this podcast series (hosted by a Jewish guy who appears unbiased). I think most people would be pretty shocked to learn about the history. I've posted this all a few times. Doubtful anybody has taken the challenge to cross-examine what they believe about the situation:

Israel at War: Why Did Hamas Attack?

What motivated the Hamas terrorist attack? How did Israel fail to stop it? And what should Americans know about the state of Israel’s chaotic internal politics?

www.theringer.com

The Tragedy of Picking Sides in the Israel-Palestine Conflict

Author Peter Beinart joins Derek to further discuss the war between Israel and Hamas

www.theringer.com

Israel Has No Good Options

Georgetown University professor Daniel Byman, one of the world’s leading researchers on terrorism, counterterrorism, and Israel’s military, joins to discuss the failings of Israel’s current strategy

www.theringer.com

Two Israel-Palestine Historians Explain: How Did We Get Here? And What Happens Next?

Two historians share their thoughts on Israel’s military response, the future of the Israel-Hamas conflict, and the "missing moderate middle" on both sides

www.theringer.com

The Fragile Hope for Peace in Israel-Palestine

Sally Abed, an activist with the group Standing Together, joins Derek to discuss what it’s like being Palestinian in Israel, how to build a coalition for peace, and more

www.theringer.com

World on Fire, Part 1: The Houthis, Israel’s Impossible War, and Worsening Middle East Chaos

Natan Sachs, director of the Center for Middle East Policy at Brookings, joins Dereks to talk about the current state of the Middle East

www.theringer.com

World on Fire, Part 2: Global Conflict Has Surged to an 80-Year High. Why?

This might be the most violent period of the 21st century, with more total conflicts than any year since World War II

www.theringer.com

 

[Orangeslice13]

first I have seen of this hot take

lol @ hot take.
Anyone setting themselves on fire for “bringing attention too…” is a moron.

 

[Orangeslice13]

You still don't know. Ok, it's normal.

At least you’re self aware

 

[85SugarVol]

That's how you see it or are you speaking for others?

That’s me articulating the views of others posted in this thread.

 

[LouderVol]

His death will accomplish absolutely nothing, if he wanted to actually give his life for the cause he would have found his way to Gaza and fought for Hamas. The guy was a mentally unstable moron who killed himself for nothing.

how would have dying as soon as he stepped foot in Palestine actually served the cause? how would have dying to indirect fire served the cause? how would have having his face blown off when the Israelis breached his bunker served the cause?

you don't need to die on the line to serve a cause. and his cause may have been more about peace than victory.

 

[hog88]

What do you want me to say? That he changed a million minds? It's impossible to say what the impact is or what/how he could've done something to make a bigger one. I'm not going to guess at that, but you guys certainly seem comfortable doing so.

I do feel comfortable saying that he killed himself for nothing. There is absolutely nothing noble or admirable about suicide.

 

[StarRaider]

It's a noble notion. We all hope he didn't kill himself in vain.

I am afraid he did.

I feel bad for his family and other friends that have to live with the aftermath. I don't feel anything for the self-immolater.... he controlled and caused that action by himself.